praying for someone
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-12-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: praying for someone
(04-12-2013 08:19 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 04:06 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  I sometimes wonder how much of that is transferable to the non-religious. If someone is going to say that the time spent praying (translated as being in their thoughts) is better spent in practical actions, then surely an atheist's words of comfort are under equal obligation, where instead of sitting at home remembering that person or situation and offering nice thoughts on their behalf they should be engaged in some kind of pressing project themselves? Words and actions must go together, whether from atheist or believer. Equal in putting themselves forward, and equal in obligation to their fellow man.
You are dodging and deflecting to a strawman you made up. No one has said that they do this.

I'm sorry but I don't think am I dodging or saying anything that hasn't been said. Even disregarding the discussion here, the author of the article clearly stated that (1) he believes prayer is useless and (2) that he equates offers of prayer as being equal to a statement of being in someone's thoughts. I wish you had have said more, but I think you're taking my thought as somehow being a bad argument for 'atheists just say that to get out of doing something' which is not at all what I meant. It was just an observation that whether atheist or believer, caring for each other should never stop at simply keeping someone in our thoughts and prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: praying for someone
Back to the effectiveness or usefullness of prayer, it has been related to "keeping in one's thoughts" and apparently ends right there. This is just a label put on this concept by the believers that gives a warm and fuzzy feeling and nothing more. They now it accomplishes absolutely nothing more and will conjure up all sorts of excuses to explain away the empty well wishes.

Like the great George Carlin's example - Icould pray to the sun and get the exact same results that a christian gets from their god. Petitioning god through prayer to build up that relationship is just a method of self gratification in support of a delusion.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: praying for someone
(04-12-2013 05:33 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  First of all, I apologise for not being able to go into huge detail to answer all your quesitons, but I'll try to be as clear as I can Smile. Yes, I do believe God is all-knowing. And (apologies to the Calvanists) I also believe that everything is known but not everything is determined. He does have a plan and a purpose but it is our choice whether we want to follow it by following His will. I fully expect someone's going to tear that last sentence to pieces (especially now I've said it :blushSmile but to stick to the topic, where does that leave prayer? I think prayer in this is how we first seek God and ask for the things that will not only be good for us but in His will. It's possibly the hardest thought shift when you're growing up in the church. You have this child mind-set that sees God like you see your parents and so go about prayer the same way you pester your parents and then you're an adult learning that as muh as God loves you, you're not the centre of the universe. Prayer to an all-knowing God isn't telling Him anything new, but it's showing that your're turning towards Him and willing to be part of His plan for you.

So God is all knowing? But if he knows of all paths then why was he surprised that the paths human would choose in the supposed garden of Eden if you believe such things which it obviously is not true but let us say it was. Why then would he become angry and upset if he knew the snake had talked to them. He knew that Adam and Eve had no idea of death since if they existed in this perfect garden they wouldn't be exposed to it and that they were to naive to know about the consequences of their actions? I know this may be a off topic but if we go back to prayer and this what was the entirety of the point of that if God is all knowing? Do you believe praying to God will change his mind and cause things to change in his plan or that he doesn't know where it will lead and simply answers the prayers of random individuals. In both God accomplishes nothing and both seem to be used to create this false sense

(04-12-2013 05:33 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  I don't know, and I'll be the first to say that it would be great if God's actions in the world came with a hand written note to verify. And the question isn't new- read the pslams sometime, they're full of these questions of why bad things happen to good people, good things to the bad and whether it means God is just passivly letting humans battle it out. I find this question most asked in times of suffering and for me the answer is faith (not a blind one, but a trusting one) and a hope of a life beyond this one. Do I believe God hears prayer? Yes. Could I point to something and say 'that's God's work'? In my own experience yes.

This desire for certainty in answers to prayer is a hard one, and I haven't met a believer yet who hasn't admitted the struggle.

If you believe it would be great if God did so why do you believe he or she doesn't? Should't it be our quest if a God does exist that we know as much as possible about them to assure we are doing what that deity wants? What if the deity is a horrendous creature and we find he is only manipulating us to cause horrific things? We can definitely see that many religions have caused atrocities throughout history and simply divided us. I was saying that couldn't coincidence simply explain why sometimes bad things happen to good people or good things happen to bad people? Isn't it convenient for the Bible to just say something that would happen regardless? I can predict good and bad things will happen to you but that does not make me a prophet and saying you learn from the bad things isn't always right as I will explain later with children who die early in life or people who have messed up things happen to them that they don't truly learn anything from except that God simply watches and he does not care if he exists.

You say he is letting humans battle it out. Why? What is the point of all this needless war and hatred that God created? Why does he let it continue as it takes lives and rationality away from people? Why does he believe robbing us of a more peaceful world is any great thing to do to humankind? Now you say this faith is a trusting one and not a blind one. How do you know it is trusting? If God lets other humans die needlessly how do you know you could trust that being?

The last thing is the thing I believe is the reason you yourself believe. You said you hope for a life after this one and the fear of death is the strongest reason I believe we have other than adults raising their children in the same way that religion continues to exist because knowing of the fact that their might be nothing after you die is frightening to many. Why do you hope you have a second life? Why not enjoy the existence of this one?





And yet religion needs to dangle the afterlife like some sort of carrot for its believers. To me its nothing people should live for and with the knowledge that we exist now we should enjoy what time we have now. If there is a heaven go and enjoy that as well, but if there is not and you were deceived into believing there was than I would believe that would be a great betrayal towards you. Heaven and hell I believe prays on our worst fear and leads to those who fear nonexistence to highly hope for something afterwards. Even towards the hope a hell exists for those who should be tortured for eternity.

I don't believe anyone is hearing your prayer. I am sorry but you would need to show me what would be God's work in your experience. I have never seen something and thought that God designed this but I do look at the world with wonder and beauty as this place that existed before humans and will definitely live much after we cease to exist. Same with the mass of space that surrounds us.





Now I don't know if you believe in same sex marriage equality but it bothers me as well that people think God cares about what humans do inside their bedroom if he created something this massive, this large and this expanse that we are only a small fragment swallowed in an enormity of darkness with a spot of life keeping us alive.

And the deity gets angry if someone has sex.

Joking aside also, I hope believers do struggle in believing it and challenge to find what is true. I hope they search for truth because regardless if they believe in God or not those who actively search for answers I believe are doing a great service to themselves rather than those that follow blindly.

(04-12-2013 05:33 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  Oh my goodness, another question that could fill booksSmile I don't think anyone hasn't had God revealed to them in some way. In the OT when the Israilites got angry at God He says 'am I not the God of also of...' and lists a whole lot of other nations. The point being that although they were His chosen people they were supposed to be an example of how to relate to God- not the only people He was interested in. So when the topic of other religions come up, I don't deny that they have their roots in the divine, and even those who claim no religion still have the capability to distinguish moral standards because that is part of how we were created. Just look at the Golden Rule- that's everywhere accepted as just plain common sense these days. However what Christianity offers is the ultimate revelation of God in Jesus and a way of relating to God based on acceptance rather than merit. I'd love it if someone could throw in some comparisons to respond to.

I believe that most here on this forum and plenty of people throughout the entirety of the world have not see God reveal in any way. Do you find it strange that Christian's see the Christian God they were raised to believe and that Hindu's see numerous Hindu deities that they were raised to believe? Why do you not find many Christian's here in America seeing Hindu Gods or Hindu's see the Christian God? Why is it nearly always the God they were raised with? Maybe there is no God at all simply an idea we perpetuate with a strong want to believe rather than a reality of what is actually there.

Also, you believe God is the God of other nations while he tries to systematically destroy and eradicate those he simply does not like. Look at the insane slaughter of the Amalekytes. It was brutally disgusting and involved the murders of women and children and even goes on to say babies were part of God's wrath on these people he supposedly gave his 'love' to. The only thing he revealed to them was fear, horror and loss as he showed how much he cared for others that were not of his own.

1 Samuel 15:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Now what I find even more disgusting is when people say it was fine for God to murder children and infants because they would join him in heaven. That is literally justifying killing babies. If you were all knowing and all powerful wouldn't you believe you could easily find a way to avoid all that? Instead of not only allowing it but insinuating it in the first place?

It seems in our modern world that now God is only interested in the fortunate and the ones that can give him money. I don't see much care for the dying children in Africa and if he has revealed himself in any way there it is the sheer genocides of biblical proportions he has created with the diseases he intelligently designed.

[Image: kevin-carter-vulture1.jpg]

I have always shown this picture and believe it to be a perfect example of God being there for someone. God is everywhere in this image or is he not? Because if he is he is witnessing someone die in a saddening way. Did God reveal himself to this person? If he did why not give them something or help them? Why just watch? Why watch when a women is raped against her will? Why watch as extremely religious parents prevents their child from getting medical help? Why watch this? If you say its a test or for them to learn. What does a child learn from starving to death and what does a women learn when she is raped? I believe both are horrific stories and if God is watching that being is ugly in every part of that word.





God would then be favoring evil and not only that but if he would allow this and then send people to an eternity of fire for a finite crime then he is far worse than any evil created on the entirety of this planet.

Now you attribute morals to God and I hope not in a demeaning way that you study more about humans and religions as well. Religions don't have the best morals. In the Bible women who are not virgins on their wedding night should be killed. Not just killed but brutally stoned to death.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

Let me show you how disgusting that act is.





I am doing this because I want to make it clear how disturbing the Bible is. How inhumane it is. Morals do not come from the Bible and even if they did they would not be moral. Humans have grown to realize that they would not like to be killed and understand that if we work together and punish those who do harm to the innocent it only benefits us as a whole. That is why you will find it worldwide not because God had his fingers in it since each region had largely different God's and beliefs but overall it was beneficial if I don't kill you and you don't kill me and those who choose to do that act should be imprisoned or in the Bible's standards: Stoned to death. We have surpassed the Bible with our morality and things such as slavery are also present and not restricted at all in the Bible. Instead such acts like slavery are only encouraged.

Leviticus 25:44–46
44 “However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you. 45 You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, 46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.

I understand if you believe and I am sorry if I may sound harsh but I believe there is no way the Bible gave us morality and cultures before the Bible already had laws of not killing one another like the ancient Sumerians so it wasn't biblically inspired. And the Sumerians had their own different deities.

In the end you say its good that people believe in God because God can accept those who do evil and remain evil until they die and apologize to God rather than have people who are good people for the sake of being good people. I will never smoke, I will never drink. I doubt I will kill anyone and I believe I try to help human beings. The fact he wants to burn me forever because he himself has given me nothing to accept his existence is his own fault. I rather live skeptical not only of your God but all until its proven. But unfortunately it hasn't and the same way you dismiss Hindu God's is the same way I dismiss yours. Except all the atheist here just went one God further.

(04-12-2013 05:33 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  You have no idea how much I agree with almost all of this. No problem with bringing everything to God in prayer- the small as well as the big- but it can be sometimes used to insulate a person from the world and create a perception of God that is different to what He is. I don't see anything wrong with thanking God for the blessings in our own lives but for me that gratitude should lead to a natural desire to show it through our actions to others. Also I don't beleive that an answer to prayer is always God's invisible hand reaching down to do something. Part of what we were talking about at the start with God's will includes relating to each other in the same way God relates to us- with compassion and kindness and advocacy. I was raised to believe in 'practical holiness.' The idea that prayer is good for our own spiritual life and to focus on God, but that the ultimate expression of God in our life is to show His love in our actions to others- in nursing the sick, helping the poor, etc. When we say things like the suffering in the world is evidence of prayer having no effect, I think it's forgetting that prayer is a way of communicating with God, but that isn't what being 'religious' is about. It's just as much about what you do in being the hands and feet of God that forwards God's plan and not just being the askers for things.

Sorry for the length and I hope I've answered your questions as far as I could at the moment (late at night, should be in bed:sleepySmile. The most frustrating things about internet forums is that when we all have different time zones you only really get one shot at throwing everything that can think of out there and everyone else jumps on while you're asleep- runs the risk of being very jumbled! We've jumped from calvanism to comparative religion to practical religion and would love to hear what you think.

Thanks I am glad you at least agree with me there. I just find it saddening people do that when if it did have an effect we should be using that towards the unfortunate. You said you were raised to believe it so if you were a Buddhist and raised to believe that would you think you would be a Christian today? Just curious because I strongly believe that is the link and the reason humans believe in a God today.

I think since you live in a fortunate part of the world you can think these things and be content. I have gone to less wealthy parts of the world and it fills you with a sadness that is so strange. Especially because these regions are so highly religious. In the end if God can't help us and is simply there than why do we need him? If fellow human beings can help one another shouldn't we be focusing on that more instead? And instead of giving money to the church spend all this money to starving children? If he has no effect why call him God?

I am sorry mine is generally long but I usually try to talk about every point brought up and challenge or talk about said point. I bring a lot of things from videos to pictures and to the religious books themselves to demonstrate the points I am making for people to understand them more. I will be the first one to tell you that if you do find evidence to God show me because I would have no freaken problem believing a deity but I do need to have factual information he is there. And a book that talks about genocides, discrimination against women, hatred towards homosexuals and slavery is not something I believe to be strong evidence.

Also, don't be intimidated! I believe you are actually very nice and friendly. I am sorry if I am sharp and unforgiving. I am not one to really be light on any subject but I promise you that I don't mind if you call me a doody head or believe I am any more intelligent than you. I just believe you are currently wrong on this subject and hell if a deity exists he would know I have been wrong plenty of times.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 10:57 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: praying for someone
(04-12-2013 12:28 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 08:19 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are dodging and deflecting to a strawman you made up. No one has said that they do this.

I'm sorry but I don't think am I dodging or saying anything that hasn't been said.
Of *course* you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't attempt it.


Quote:Even disregarding the discussion here, the author of the article clearly stated that (1) he believes prayer is useless and (2) that he equates offers of prayer as being equal to a statement of being in someone's thoughts.


*What* "article"...?


Quote: I wish you had have said more,

Well, I sure can.

Quote: but I think you're taking my thought as somehow being a bad argument for 'atheists just say that to get out of doing something' which is not at all what I meant.

That is not correct. What you are doing is a big fat:

[Image: no_U.jpg]

Quote: It was just an observation that whether atheist or believer, caring for each other should never stop at simply keeping someone in our thoughts and prayers.

Can you even bother to be honest with yourself?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: praying for someone
(04-12-2013 08:59 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  *What* "article"...?
The article linked by BrianS (#34)to which I was replying (#37). When you replied in order to suggest I was 'dodging and directing to a strawman (#40) I assumed (wrongly it turns out) that you had actually read my post thoroughly and understood it, seeing as I kept in the quotes by BrianS to make it clear what I was referring to.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: praying for someone
(04-12-2013 10:48 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 08:59 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  *What* "article"...?
The article linked by BrianS (#34)to which I was replying (#37). When you replied in order to suggest I was 'dodging and directing to a strawman (#40) I assumed (wrongly it turns out) that you had actually read my post thoroughly and understood it, seeing as I kept in the quotes by BrianS to make it clear what I was referring to.

I was addressing what *YOU* said, not what that article said. What part of that do you not get?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 11:42 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 11:48 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: praying for someone
Woah calm down man. If its getting to the point where hands are coming out of people's mouths than I believe we are going a bit too far. I say we discuss this rationally and fling feces at one another.

Complete joking aside come on this is a debate you can be sharp or aggressive but it isn't good to be close to the edge of becoming toxic.

Now eat a baby. Calms my nerves whenever I am not my perfect self.

[Image: atheism-eating-babies.jpg]

Anyways, she hasn't come even remotely close to Egor when he was at his worst. Actually she is quite nice and alright and hope she sticks around. I don't agree with many things she states but I will challenge them and do my best to bring whatever knowledge I have even though I sound monotone when I do so -.- Regardless she is probably one of the better theists we have had in quite a while.

And oh Egor, how I miss talking to that theist as I saw his eyes open to rationality only to be closed again by some wacky thoughts.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ShirubaDangan's post
04-12-2013, 11:56 PM
RE: praying for someone
Hello my fellow essay-length poster! I think we're verging a little off topic together, but I hear that's pretty much expected around here Smile It might not all be in order, but I hope this answers most of what you've put forward. I hope if I haven't covered anything you particularly wanted a reply to, let me know.
(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  He knew that Adam and Eve had no idea of death since if they existed in this perfect garden they wouldn't be exposed to it and that they were to naive to know about the consequences of their actions? I know this may be a off topic but if we go back to prayer and this what was the entirety of the point of that if God is all knowing? Do you believe praying to God will change his mind and cause things to change in his plan or that he doesn't know where it will lead and simply answers the prayers of random individuals. In both God accomplishes nothing and both seem to be used to create this false sense
You know, you have a wonderful way of dragging up the mind-bending questions that have puzzled believers for ever. First of all, I don't think if Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence it means a state of naivety. They had everything they needed, they just had to trust God. They were tempted to think that God was suppressing their knowledge/potential and acted in their free will to disobey God, so I don't God was exposing them to anything they couldn't handle. God is all-knowing and He also has the right and ability to alter His plan. It is entirely possibly that my prayer can result in an alteration. It's been a few years since I've read on this. It's difficult because if we're starting out with an eternal God, our brains can't deal with the concept of eternity let alone the mind of one who shapes it. Let me think about this.


(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Should't it be our quest if a God does exist that we know as much as possible about them to assure we are doing what that deity wants? I was saying that couldn't coincidence simply explain why sometimes bad things happen to good people or good things happen to bad people?
Yes it should be our quest. That's why we pray, read the scriptures, remember the teachings of Jesus, and talk with others in order to reflect on them and grow in faith.

And yes, many things can come down to 'coincidence' or in other words, events that happen in our lives can often come about because of the consequences of our free will and the natural laws of the world.

(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  You say he is letting humans battle it out. Why? What is the point of all this needless war and hatred that God created?
Oops sorry about that, I wasn't saying myself that He's letting humans battle it out. That was in relation to the psalms, where there's a lot of this kind of questioning going on. They're actually pretty honest in their speaking about crying out to God and doubting whether He hears.

(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  It seems in our modern world that now God is only interested in the fortunate and the ones that can give him money. I don't see much care for the dying children in Africa and if he has revealed himself in any way there it is the sheer genocides of biblical proportions he has created with the diseases he intelligently designed.

I have always shown this picture and believe it to be a perfect example of God being there for someone. God is everywhere in this image or is he not? Because if he is he is witnessing someone die in a saddening way. Did God reveal himself to this person? If he did why not give them something or help them? Why just watch? Why watch when a women is raped against her will? Why watch as extremely religious parents prevents their child from getting medical help? Why watch this? If you say its a test or for them to learn. What does a child learn from starving to death and what does a women learn when she is raped? I believe both are horrific stories and if God is watching that being is ugly in every part of that word.
Now we're getting into the problem again of suffering and the role of natural laws and free will. This won't be a complete answer, but I hope we can use it to move further along. The classic 'Where is God when it hurts' (also the title of very good book by Phillip Yancy). There's a song from a few years ago 'God is watching us from a distance' saying basically that from a distance everything looks peaceful and nice and that's where God is. I don't believe that. For me God enters into every suffering, every pain, every joy and happiness that I experience. God is never absent in suffering which to me is the most wonderful and difficult thing. If we are subject to the consequences of each others free will and the natural laws of the earth, where does the suffering originate from? If I tell my nephew not to hit his brother and he does, did I cause his brother's suffering? I know that after death those who have had suffering and no justice will be restored and have that justice, but again that does not much help the pain of now. These were just a few throw-away thoughts, but I'd like to hear from you where you're coming from on the perspective of free will/ God's intervention. Where do you draw the line past which you believe God should intervene?

Also, how do you view the God of the OT in relation to the NT? Just so I know where you're coming from in relation to the morality questions.

(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  The fact he wants to burn me forever because he himself has given me nothing to accept his existence is his own fault. I rather live skeptical not only of your God but all until its proven. But unfortunately it hasn't and the same way you dismiss Hindu God's is the same way I dismiss yours. Except all the atheist here just went one God further.
What proof are you requiring of God in order for it to be enough?


(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  I am sorry mine is generally long but I usually try to talk about every point brought up and challenge or talk about said point. I bring a lot of things from videos to pictures and to the religious books themselves to demonstrate the points I am making for people to understand them more.
I'm only sorry I haven't covered your post as well as you've covered mine. Believe me when I say I appreciate how thorough you are. For me that shows you don't take these questions lightly and even though we're pretty much at opposite ends here I can completely respect the thought you put into your beliefs.

(04-12-2013 07:34 PM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Also, don't be intimidated! I believe you are actually very nice and friendly. I am sorry if I am sharp and unforgiving. I am not one to really be light on any subject but I promise you that I don't mind if you call me a doody head or believe I am any more intelligent than you. I just believe you are currently wrong on this subject and hell if a deity exists he would know I have been wrong plenty of times.
You know I need this. It does everyone good to be challenged and especially on topics that it's tempting to avoid. It comes back to what I said about blind vs trusting faith. How can I trust I know the answer if I haven't asked the tough questions?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Yasmin's post
07-12-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: praying for someone
(30-11-2013 04:32 PM)Takelababy Wrote:  When I hear someone declare that she will pray for someone, I've come to realize that it means this person will do nothing to help with the situation. Yet there seems to be self satisfaction by praying for someone. Just my take on this.

You just banged the nail on the head! It's the cop out routine. It's the "I'll do the one thing that doesn't require me to get off my ass, the thing you can't know if I did it or not".

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-12-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: praying for someone



Onward, my faithful steed!
[Image: ezgif-save_zps4d93a674.gif?t=1395781443]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: