problem of evil and suffering
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25-07-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
The suffering, its all part of gods great convoluted plan to eventually kill the devil. I also find it hilarious that Christians can believe in free will and gods plan simultaneously when the two concepts are clearly incompatible with one another.
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25-07-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(12-07-2015 06:50 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  in bart herman's book god's problem he discussed the issue how why an all-powerful god allows suffering and FREE WILL is also examined. if god is all powerful, allknowing, and all loving , why did he create lucifer knowing that her would revolt and tempt eve into eating the apple and then sacrificing his son. thats not very loving to me remember its not free will.
More correctly to say "God gives to all people moral agency" instead of "free will".
Moral agency gives all children of God an opportunity to choose between good and evil.
When God created Lucifer he was not Devil. He was not falling angel. But he was one of the noble and chosen.
(12-07-2015 06:50 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  why didn't he just for give mankinds sins did he need to sacrifice his son?
God is not only Mercy but He is Justice. If He just simply forgives us all our sins it will be Mercy. But where is Justice then?
Atonement gives an opportunity to have Justice and Mercy.
(12-07-2015 06:50 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  or why didn't he stop the earthquakes or tsunamis etc.
Because it is part of getting to know evil and learn how to deal with it the right way. By learning evil and how to deal with it the right way we becoming more like Gods/more perfect/more wise/more kind. And most of all we can exercise our moral agency.
(12-07-2015 06:50 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  why didn't got cure all disease.
Because it is something that we have to learn to do. This way we grow/ we progress. Without working and searching we can not progress.

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28-07-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(24-07-2015 11:53 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm afraid I'd restate your answer as "Sure, you just answered my question, but I don't like the answer, so I'll redact it to that passage being pseudopigrapha."

LOL Q - I am perfectly okay with your answer. It's an interpretation though. That's why it doesn't matter what answer you give. Like I said before and you still cannot dispute: (Setting aside the potential circular reasoning for a moment) If you believe the bible is the divine inspired word of god then every word / idea held within those pages has to be true because god would not contradict himself. This is simply NOT the case and loads of people in this forum have pointed that out a number times. However, as soon as you try to harmonize one single section you immediately concede the the bible IS contradictory or else there is no reason to harmonize. The view you are interpreting: "Jesus talked in parables so that he could set traps for others not to know about the kingdom of heaven" is in direct contradiction to verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 and II Peter 3:9. So why would a loving god who wants "all to be saved and come to him" set traps to deliberately mislead people?
You simply can't have it both ways.

Quote:I'd prefer you go the traditional TTA route of saying "Holy cow, freakin' Jesus purposefully spoke to keep non-disciples wandering and lost--he sucks!" rather than "Oh well, the Bible is confusing because it has all these other sources contributing things to it I don't like!"

You can prefer all you want. I speak what I see. I see a direct contradiction which infuses confusion. 1 Cor. 14:33 - God is not the author of confusion - Well if he allowed two directly incompatible ideas to lie together in the same bed, that IS authoring confusion.

Quote:Jesus and other writers are clear in the Bible--it's meant to keep non-seekers barred outside. Based on how TTA'ers respond--Q must be insane to actually like that book--it's clearly working!

You moved the goal posts young man!! Now you are saying it's meant to keep "non-seekers" out. Either way, it doesn't work. Because if that were true, then so many people who sought with utmost sincerity, including myself, would not have disregarded and fled their faith because of lack of evidence, bad reasoning and inconsistencies on top of contradictions.

It's not a contradiction on its face if there are TWO wills. You're new to the party, so I do not mind explaining this again:

Yes, the Bible says God wants you to be saved.

Yes, the Bible says you have been given great power via free will, so if you don't want to be saved, the Bible is traps and trials, and if you do want to be saved, it is lovely.

God could override your will and then He would be the dictator atheists make Him out to be...

"I do want you to come to my birthday party, but if you'd really not want to be there, don't be there."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-07-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(25-07-2015 07:57 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  The suffering, its all part of gods great convoluted plan to eventually kill the devil. I also find it hilarious that Christians can believe in free will and gods plan simultaneously when the two concepts are clearly incompatible with one another.

God's plan is for you to have free will!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-07-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-07-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 07:57 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  The suffering, its all part of gods great convoluted plan to eventually kill the devil. I also find it hilarious that Christians can believe in free will and gods plan simultaneously when the two concepts are clearly incompatible with one another.

God's plan is for you to have free will!

It's all a moot point. You need incontrovertible evidence that a god even exists and thus far, that hasn't happened. Ever.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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28-07-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-07-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 07:57 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  The suffering, its all part of gods great convoluted plan to eventually kill the devil. I also find it hilarious that Christians can believe in free will and gods plan simultaneously when the two concepts are clearly incompatible with one another.

God's plan is for you to have free will!

I thought people didn't have free will in Heaven. They seem to just by passages like in Revelations, spend all their time praising the Lord.

And is it possible for a being to have free will in heaven if they do... and not be happy and want to act out and choose "bad." What about people who mourn because their loved ones were bad and aren't in Heaven with them but they know they are down in Hell being tortured? Are those people going to have free will and not one of them occasionally act out with their free will in Heaven?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-07-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-07-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:53 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  LOL Q - I am perfectly okay with your answer. It's an interpretation though. That's why it doesn't matter what answer you give. Like I said before and you still cannot dispute: (Setting aside the potential circular reasoning for a moment) If you believe the bible is the divine inspired word of god then every word / idea held within those pages has to be true because god would not contradict himself. This is simply NOT the case and loads of people in this forum have pointed that out a number times. However, as soon as you try to harmonize one single section you immediately concede the the bible IS contradictory or else there is no reason to harmonize. The view you are interpreting: "Jesus talked in parables so that he could set traps for others not to know about the kingdom of heaven" is in direct contradiction to verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 and II Peter 3:9. So why would a loving god who wants "all to be saved and come to him" set traps to deliberately mislead people?
You simply can't have it both ways.


You can prefer all you want. I speak what I see. I see a direct contradiction which infuses confusion. 1 Cor. 14:33 - God is not the author of confusion - Well if he allowed two directly incompatible ideas to lie together in the same bed, that IS authoring confusion.


You moved the goal posts young man!! Now you are saying it's meant to keep "non-seekers" out. Either way, it doesn't work. Because if that were true, then so many people who sought with utmost sincerity, including myself, would not have disregarded and fled their faith because of lack of evidence, bad reasoning and inconsistencies on top of contradictions.

It's not a contradiction on its face if there are TWO wills. You're new to the party, so I do not mind explaining this again:

Yes, the Bible says God wants you to be saved.

Yes, the Bible says you have been given great power via free will, so if you don't want to be saved, the Bible is traps and trials, and if you do want to be saved, it is lovely.

God could override your will and then He would be the dictator atheists make Him out to be...

"I do want you to come to my birthday party, but if you'd really not want to be there, don't be there."

That has to be one of the most absurd attempts at harmonization that I have heard in my 30+ years of biblical study. I gave you the benefit of the doubt despite what many people in this forum have railed about over all of your posts. Now, it's easy to see why the polemics just keep building.

You continuously provide nonsensical arguments with non-sequitur ideas in attempt to grasp at any mode of compatibility possible to hold your patch work in place. As I said before though, I completely understand. You are taking a 2000 year old book and trying to make it fit into your life today. You are reading it as if it was written to you, when in fact, it was not.

As I said, there are people who have desperately searched for god with every good intention in mind but reason and logic make that position too difficult resulting in non-belief. You cannot simply dismiss those people as "well they didn't REALLY want to understand god, so therefore the parables were spoken to set traps for them. How do you convince yourself of that? It is ludicrous!

Again your arguments are circular. For the life of me I cannot fathom how you continually miss this! If you are going to cherry pick the "bible" to argue points that seem to agree with your own view of god then you cannot ignore the parts that don't.

Case in point --
Per your comment:
Quote:God could override your will and then He would be the dictator atheists make Him out to be...
...
please do not bring free will into this discussion unless you are prepared to answer all the contradictions about free-will vs. the lack of it in many biblical passages. Not to mention, the fact that belief in any sort of answer to certain petitioning prayers deliberately violates free will of at least some. If god can deliberately harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus to "make his power known" then this is a direct violation of free will. And no, he didn't do this because Pharaoh's heart was already hardened and there was no chance of him recognizing or returning to god. He directly says in Ex. 14:4 - "so the Egyptians will know I am the LORD." When his heart softened, god deliberately hardened it again, multiple times.

Therefore if god is willing to harden the heart of a person which in turn affected the lives of thousands of Egyptian soldiers being sent into death, and as a result, all those soldier's families anguish and turmoil, then certainly he should be willing to directly violate free-will to "save everyone."

Again, non-believers do not make god out to be a dictator. They don't believe in a god. How many times do I need to keep repeating this? Myself and others are merely granting you the fact that if a god existed it is one of the worst moral beings ever conceived of.

As per your parable argument: I encourage you to look at the bigger picture of possibility derived from real scholarship, not your simple reading of the text and interpreting the way you want to see it. Michael Goulder did some great work on reasons for concluding that the parables we see in the gospels were literary creations of those authors and not derived from anything an historical Jesus might have said, if he existed. Jonn Drury's book, The Parables in the Gospels, History and Allegory, is a good read as well.

Keep trying though Mr. Q -- you're lack in reasoning and logic, although justifiably depressing, is darkly humorous.

**Crickets** -- God
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28-07-2015, 11:20 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
Reading Q laud himself as "sent by God to preach" should be all you need to hear to know what he's truly about.
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29-07-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-07-2015 02:52 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not a contradiction on its face if there are TWO wills. You're new to the party, so I do not mind explaining this again:

Yes, the Bible says God wants you to be saved.

Yes, the Bible says you have been given great power via free will, so if you don't want to be saved, the Bible is traps and trials, and if you do want to be saved, it is lovely.

God could override your will and then He would be the dictator atheists make Him out to be...

"I do want you to come to my birthday party, but if you'd really not want to be there, don't be there."

That has to be one of the most absurd attempts at harmonization that I have heard in my 30+ years of biblical study. I gave you the benefit of the doubt despite what many people in this forum have railed about over all of your posts. Now, it's easy to see why the polemics just keep building.

You continuously provide nonsensical arguments with non-sequitur ideas in attempt to grasp at any mode of compatibility possible to hold your patch work in place. As I said before though, I completely understand. You are taking a 2000 year old book and trying to make it fit into your life today. You are reading it as if it was written to you, when in fact, it was not.

As I said, there are people who have desperately searched for god with every good intention in mind but reason and logic make that position too difficult resulting in non-belief. You cannot simply dismiss those people as "well they didn't REALLY want to understand god, so therefore the parables were spoken to set traps for them. How do you convince yourself of that? It is ludicrous!

Again your arguments are circular. For the life of me I cannot fathom how you continually miss this! If you are going to cherry pick the "bible" to argue points that seem to agree with your own view of god then you cannot ignore the parts that don't.

Case in point --
Per your comment:
Quote:God could override your will and then He would be the dictator atheists make Him out to be...
...
please do not bring free will into this discussion unless you are prepared to answer all the contradictions about free-will vs. the lack of it in many biblical passages. Not to mention, the fact that belief in any sort of answer to certain petitioning prayers deliberately violates free will of at least some. If god can deliberately harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus to "make his power known" then this is a direct violation of free will. And no, he didn't do this because Pharaoh's heart was already hardened and there was no chance of him recognizing or returning to god. He directly says in Ex. 14:4 - "so the Egyptians will know I am the LORD." When his heart softened, god deliberately hardened it again, multiple times.

Therefore if god is willing to harden the heart of a person which in turn affected the lives of thousands of Egyptian soldiers being sent into death, and as a result, all those soldier's families anguish and turmoil, then certainly he should be willing to directly violate free-will to "save everyone."

Again, non-believers do not make god out to be a dictator. They don't believe in a god. How many times do I need to keep repeating this? Myself and others are merely granting you the fact that if a god existed it is one of the worst moral beings ever conceived of.

As per your parable argument: I encourage you to look at the bigger picture of possibility derived from real scholarship, not your simple reading of the text and interpreting the way you want to see it. Michael Goulder did some great work on reasons for concluding that the parables we see in the gospels were literary creations of those authors and not derived from anything an historical Jesus might have said, if he existed. Jonn Drury's book, The Parables in the Gospels, History and Allegory, is a good read as well.

Keep trying though Mr. Q -- you're lack in reasoning and logic, although justifiably depressing, is darkly humorous.

The New Testament uses the word "predestined" regarding "saved" (from memory) five times. Each time, always, it is used with the word "foreknowledge". We launched Apollo 11 at the moon to a point in space where it would come to meet the rocket and vice versa after several days' journey from Earth orbit. We did not predestine or force or make the moon to arrive at the point where Apollo 11 would meet it, but we had foreknowledge, inductive, observable, deductive, demonstrated, that the moon would be there.

God predestined people to be saved in terms of He knows who will trust Him. He has foreknowledge and meets people where they need to be met. Same for evidence leading to placing one's trust in Christ.

Another example is how the NT says God predestines Christians to be conformed over time to the image of Christ. That's like saying I predestined my students to learn my syllabus or I predestined my family to eat pizza when they asked to visit a pizzeria. You are putting way too much weight on predestination notions IMHO, then again, I find that most atheists love predestination because it lets them be fatalistic about Christ--"If there is a God, He or She would have to force me to love them or force me by overwhelming evidence to believe." Is this a tactic you could successfully employ in human interactions via "free will"? "This woman says she doesn't have feelings for me but I'm going to overwhelm her with flowers, cards and candy until she changes her desire/her will for me!" The answer, of course, is a resounding "No, this stuff I put on God wouldn't work with humans, either!" because we live in a world of conflicting wills.

You are late to the TTA party, and that's fine, but also apparently late to Hebrew study--again, for what feels like the umpteenth time, I will answer re: Pharaoh. The Hebrew for God on Pharaoh's heart means to "test what is there" or "confirm what is there" as a rope squeezed around a sponge gets the water out of "Pharaoah's heart". God foresaw Pharaoh's reaction and says, "Look, a lot of stuff will happen to Pharaoh and you'll see what's in his heart."

The same can be said of any Christian, of any atheist. God is testing us now at TTA. Will we pass the test?

Surprisingly, God is like a professor offering students a final exam worth say, 50% of the semester grade, and also the answer key. I know I would visit a professor during his office hours to get this answer key. I wouldn't shout at the professor that by god, he has to meet me on my turf in my comfort zone and print the answer key on my paper and so on.

PS. I'd like to learn more about your 30+ years of Bible study. Because we would necessarily agree that historical and other context is vital, but whoever told you the Word of God isn't for people today to live practically, live wisely, and understand God better may have been criticizing the Bible but not really studying it. In plain English, it tells the children of Israel to mediate on it constantly to save their own lives! Where did you get this stuff from? Hint: Not the Bible.

PPS. Look at it this way, obviously the Bible is relevant for our lives today since you are dredging up the way "god" treated some Pharaoh 3,500 years ago. Obviously, the Bible bothers you today...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-07-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-07-2015 01:14 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(28-07-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God's plan is for you to have free will!

It's all a moot point. You need incontrovertible evidence that a god even exists and thus far, that hasn't happened. Ever.

See my post above. Do you use the term "incontrovertible" evidence when assessing who to trust? When not to drink cyanide or open a can of Campbell's soup to ingest it? Do you have incontrovertible evidence that cyanide kills and Campbell's doesn't? Do you have incontrovertible evidence that you exist, let alone that God does? Do you have incontrovertible evidence that your soul mate "really" loves you? Have they incontrovertibly proven it?

God has given adequate evidence to all of His existence via His primary comparison in the scriptures to the heavens. As the universe is infinite or as close as we can imagine something of infinite volume, God's love and compassion and justice are infinite.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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