problem of evil and suffering
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18-08-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-08-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 12:59 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that this is true.

So what?

1. Then the Torah wasn't a mishmash of competing teams of redactors with different agendas but hails from a more univocal source. JDEP theory is shown to be false.

2. Then the Torah's construction is set far above random words--it would take skilled scholars working many months, even years, to try to embed this code.

1. Where are you getting this "mishmash of competing teams of redactors"? I have never heard anybody claim that. The final redaction (into basically what we have today) was probably done by a single team (or maybe even a single person). They could easily have embedded a "code" such as you describe, had they so desired. None of this does anything at all to discredit the documentary hypothesis.

2. If any code was embedded at that point (or any point prior to that), it is inconceivable that the pattern would have survived the numerous cycles of copying and recopying. Any pattern that you are finding in a currently available manuscript would have to have been put there much later. It would not be present in the original manuscript. Did you completely miss this point when I made it yesterday?
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18-08-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
Can you combine the strawman argument into beating a dead strawman?

Beating a dead straw horse? This is almost a 20-year-old argument!

Incidentally, he's lying about whether a Hebrew translation of War and Peace was used. It was.

The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims Of the Paranormal looked at that one:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/hidden_mes...bible_code

A quote from the above site:

Some critics of Drosnin say the journalist is just “data mining.” Mathematician Brendan McKay of Australian National University and his colleagues searched Hebrew texts besides the Bible. They found fifty-nine words related to Chanukah in the Hebrew translation of War and Peace. But McKay doesn't think someone engineered this remarkable feat for his or anyone’s benefit. Since then, McKay has responded to the following challenge Drosnin made in Newsweek:

“When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them” (Begley 1997).

McKay found assassination “predictions” in Moby Dick for Indira Gandhi, Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Rev. M. L. King, and Robert F. Kennedy (see http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html). Eliyahu Rips himself has denied Drosnin’s implication that they worked together, and has said, “I do not support the book as it is or the conclusions it derives” (Van Biema 1997).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-08-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-08-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Then the Torah wasn't a mishmash of competing teams of redactors with different agendas but hails from a more univocal source. JDEP theory is shown to be false.

2. Then the Torah's construction is set far above random words--it would take skilled scholars working many months, even years, to try to embed this code.

I ask again: so what?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-08-2015 11:19 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Then the Torah wasn't a mishmash of competing teams of redactors with different agendas but hails from a more univocal source. JDEP theory is shown to be false.

2. Then the Torah's construction is set far above random words--it would take skilled scholars working many months, even years, to try to embed this code.

I ask again: so what?

Q is on a Quixotic Quest to discredit "JDEP" (i.e., the documentary hypothesis). He thinks that if he can do that, we will all have to admit that Moses wrote the entire Torah, and therefore God exists. Checkmate, atheists!
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18-08-2015, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 12:31 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: problem of evil and suffering




There's only so much delusion I can handle, Q.

If you can't/won't read a book, watch a video.

Edit to Add: I doubt you'll watch it, but you should, as she points out many of the problems with the Documentary Hypothesis, and what we can and can't know based on that scholarly work. It's the difference between being honest about it and just running with our presuppositions, however much we might enjoy those presuppositions. If you expect us to take you seriously as a religionist, you can't just ignore what we do know and focus on making stuff up in the gaps where we don't know stuff, especially if you're saying we don't know stuff where we DO know stuff, so you can shoehorn-in your favorite Woo.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-08-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-08-2015 09:11 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Then the Torah wasn't a mishmash of competing teams of redactors with different agendas but hails from a more univocal source. JDEP theory is shown to be false.

2. Then the Torah's construction is set far above random words--it would take skilled scholars working many months, even years, to try to embed this code.

1. Where are you getting this "mishmash of competing teams of redactors"? I have never heard anybody claim that. The final redaction (into basically what we have today) was probably done by a single team (or maybe even a single person). They could easily have embedded a "code" such as you describe, had they so desired. None of this does anything at all to discredit the documentary hypothesis.

2. If any code was embedded at that point (or any point prior to that), it is inconceivable that the pattern would have survived the numerous cycles of copying and recopying. Any pattern that you are finding in a currently available manuscript would have to have been put there much later. It would not be present in the original manuscript. Did you completely miss this point when I made it yesterday?

1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-08-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:11 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  1. Where are you getting this "mishmash of competing teams of redactors"? I have never heard anybody claim that. The final redaction (into basically what we have today) was probably done by a single team (or maybe even a single person). They could easily have embedded a "code" such as you describe, had they so desired. None of this does anything at all to discredit the documentary hypothesis.

2. If any code was embedded at that point (or any point prior to that), it is inconceivable that the pattern would have survived the numerous cycles of copying and recopying. Any pattern that you are finding in a currently available manuscript would have to have been put there much later. It would not be present in the original manuscript. Did you completely miss this point when I made it yesterday?

1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

"you still must..." ????

"decision for Jesus" What is this?

"rejecting Jesus Christ" What is this?

"atheists like..." Huh?
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19-08-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:11 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  1. Where are you getting this "mishmash of competing teams of redactors"? I have never heard anybody claim that. The final redaction (into basically what we have today) was probably done by a single team (or maybe even a single person). They could easily have embedded a "code" such as you describe, had they so desired. None of this does anything at all to discredit the documentary hypothesis.

2. If any code was embedded at that point (or any point prior to that), it is inconceivable that the pattern would have survived the numerous cycles of copying and recopying. Any pattern that you are finding in a currently available manuscript would have to have been put there much later. It would not be present in the original manuscript. Did you completely miss this point when I made it yesterday?

1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

Have you inspected all 55,000 words yourself (and if so, how do you know you didn't miss something?), or are you taking someone else's word for it? Claims are easy to make. I don't believe this particular one. Bart Ehrman has done studies of this sort of thing, and the typical accuracy is nowhere near that level.

Quote:3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

I reject Jesus for the same reasons I reject Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu -- lack of evidence. What are your "heartfelt" reasons for rejecting Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu?
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19-08-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

I repeat my question.

So what?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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19-08-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 03:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

"you still must..." ????

"decision for Jesus" What is this?

"rejecting Jesus Christ" What is this?

"atheists like..." Huh?

You didn't know that Q has mindreading skills? Of course he knows all about what "atheists like".

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load
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