problem of evil and suffering
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19-08-2015, 04:51 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 03:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

Have you inspected all 55,000 words yourself (and if so, how do you know you didn't miss something?), or are you taking someone else's word for it? Claims are easy to make. I don't believe this particular one. Bart Ehrman has done studies of this sort of thing, and the typical accuracy is nowhere near that level.

Quote:3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

I reject Jesus for the same reasons I reject Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu -- lack of evidence. What are your "heartfelt" reasons for rejecting Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu?

Yep. That sums it up.Bowing
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19-08-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
I'm still amazed he's trying to push the "code" thing when it was clearly debunked by mathematician Brendan McKay of Australian National University and his colleagues, on the exact grounds that Drosnin specified would constitute a defeat for his ideas.

So, then, are we down to the "if I say it ten times, it becomes true!" argument, also known as the Argument from the Big Lie?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-08-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-08-2015 12:10 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  



There's only so much delusion I can handle, Q.

If you can't/won't read a book, watch a video.

Edit to Add: I doubt you'll watch it, but you should, as she points out many of the problems with the Documentary Hypothesis, and what we can and can't know based on that scholarly work. It's the difference between being honest about it and just running with our presuppositions, however much we might enjoy those presuppositions. If you expect us to take you seriously as a religionist, you can't just ignore what we do know and focus on making stuff up in the gaps where we don't know stuff, especially if you're saying we don't know stuff where we DO know stuff, so you can shoehorn-in your favorite Woo.

He won't watch it, just like he doesn't read long posts or press on any links. He's too lazy to think, and too frightened of what he might learn.
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19-08-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 03:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "you still must..." ????

"decision for Jesus" What is this?

"rejecting Jesus Christ" What is this?

"atheists like..." Huh?

Pretty fucking patronizing isn't he.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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19-08-2015, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2015 09:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 08:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 03:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "you still must..." ????

"decision for Jesus" What is this?

"rejecting Jesus Christ" What is this?

"atheists like..." Huh?

Pretty fucking patronizing isn't he.

Oh yes.

He thinks that because he goes to church that gives him the right to tell everyone else what to believe and what to do. It also means he can make gross generalisations about people. This shit has been going on for nearly 2000 years now.

I wonder how he would react to a sweaty Muslim standing on his porch shouting "Muhammad is the messenger"?
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20-08-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 09:50 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I wonder how he would react to a sweaty Muslim standing on his porch shouting "Muhammad is the messenger"?

At least he'd be able to say "no true christian" without being wrong for once

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-08-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 03:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

"you still must..." ????

"decision for Jesus" What is this?

"rejecting Jesus Christ" What is this?

"atheists like..." Huh?

Mark, you are becoming more incoherent over time. If you "make a decision for Jesus" He is able to restore your powers of mind.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-08-2015, 08:21 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(19-08-2015 03:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. They couldn't have "easily" embedded such a code--particularly after bringing together disparate manuscripts with (as claimed) competing ideas. That sounds good the way you put it but belies the fact. Experiment now and add a code letter in reasonable sentences every 53rd letter--in a document of some 79,000 words!

2. It is conceivable that a pattern would have survived since you are underestimating the accuracy of the masora (counters) who counted and copies as they produced a Masoretic Torah. The Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea scrolls is 55,000 words and differs from a scroll extant nearly a millennium later in one word, an indefinite article which does not alter the meaning of the text.

Have you inspected all 55,000 words yourself (and if so, how do you know you didn't miss something?), or are you taking someone else's word for it? Claims are easy to make. I don't believe this particular one. Bart Ehrman has done studies of this sort of thing, and the typical accuracy is nowhere near that level.

Quote:3. I've showed far superior Bible codes to mathematicians and others. You still must make a heartfelt, informed decision for Jesus. Unfortunately, atheists like to make heartfelt excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sad.

I reject Jesus for the same reasons I reject Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu -- lack of evidence. What are your "heartfelt" reasons for rejecting Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu?

Noble Grasshopper,

I've already written that I did indeed handle my personal incredulity at the claim by looking at a Hebrew Bible personally. No, I did not look at all 600,000-plus Hebrew letters of the Torah, or even only every 53rd letter of said 600,000--although there are several strong computer systems dedicated to similar propositions as you are undoubtedly aware. Yes, I DEFINITELY appreciate your question here--it is a fine indication that you would find such a happenstance utterly compelling. THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT ISSUE.

PS. I have no heartfelt reasons for rejecting Allah et al. I have only logical reasons. For example, since the Bible says Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Noble Qu'ran says specifically that Jesus is not the Son of God, both cannot be logically true unless we descend to the lowest forms of relativistic "truth".

PPS. Certainly, it helps to see all the evil that other religions do and the depths of moral depravity that my skeptic friends resort to, while I am basically trying to use love and logic only to convert people.

PPPS. Please don't bother to protest how moral atheists are... my moral standard includes the Decalogue, and I'll highlight where atheists break it with *s:

*There is one God
*No idols
*Don't blaspheme
*Honor Shabbat
Honor your parents
*No murder (Jesus said no unrighteous anger qualifies/amplifies this statement)
*No adultery (Jesus said lust qualifies this statement)
*No theft (TTA members daily rob my peace of mind and joy with their rude statements)
*No lying (must I explain this one to you?)
*No coveting

Even the honor your parents is questionable, since typically the more ticked-off atheists I meet have parents praying, crying and begging for them to return to faith. No, unfortunately, based on the Bible standards, atheists are extremely immoral, degenerate persons. However, am I any better than them? No, for both Christians and atheists are all under sin:

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Good news follows in the same passage in Romans 3, Grasshopper!

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-08-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-08-2015 08:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 03:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Have you inspected all 55,000 words yourself (and if so, how do you know you didn't miss something?), or are you taking someone else's word for it? Claims are easy to make. I don't believe this particular one. Bart Ehrman has done studies of this sort of thing, and the typical accuracy is nowhere near that level.


I reject Jesus for the same reasons I reject Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu -- lack of evidence. What are your "heartfelt" reasons for rejecting Allah, Krishna, and Cthulhu?

Noble Grasshopper,

I've already written that I did indeed handle my personal incredulity at the claim by looking at a Hebrew Bible personally. No, I did not look at all 600,000-plus Hebrew letters of the Torah, or even only every 53rd letter of said 600,000--although there are several strong computer systems dedicated to similar propositions as you are undoubtedly aware. Yes, I DEFINITELY appreciate your question here--it is a fine indication that you would find such a happenstance utterly compelling. THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT ISSUE.

I never said I would find it "utterly compelling". It has been demonstrated that codes such as you describe can be found in any kind of literature whatsoever, whether or not they were deliberately put there. And even if they were deliberately put there, what does that prove? As unbeliever has repeatedly asked: so what?

Quote:PS. I have no heartfelt reasons for rejecting Allah et al. I have only logical reasons. For example, since the Bible says Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Noble Qu'ran says specifically that Jesus is not the Son of God, both cannot be logically true unless we descend to the lowest forms of relativistic "truth".

Very good. Christianity and Islam contradict each other. At most one of them can be true. Bertrand Russell observed that this is true of religions in general. He thought the most likely conclusion to be that none of them were true. What makes you think Christianity is special compared to all the other religions? Why is it any more likely to be true than Islam or Hinduism?

Quote:PPS. Certainly, it helps to see all the evil that other religions do and the depths of moral depravity that my skeptic friends resort to, while I am basically trying to use love and logic only to convert people.

PPPS. Please don't bother to protest how moral atheists are... my moral standard includes the Decalogue, and I'll highlight where atheists break it with *s:

*There is one God
*No idols
*Don't blaspheme
*Honor Shabbat
Honor your parents
*No murder (Jesus said no unrighteous anger qualifies/amplifies this statement)
*No adultery (Jesus said lust qualifies this statement)
*No theft (TTA members daily rob my peace of mind and joy with their rude statements)
*No lying (must I explain this one to you?)
*No coveting

Again, so what? Christians also break every one of those, and there's no evidence that they break them any less often than atheists. Prisons are full of Christians. The "morality" argument is bogus.

"One of the things that we end up doing when we're defending atheism, is we end up talking about morality. We end up talking about how can someone be moral without God. How can someone be moral without a supreme being looking over them for reward and punishment. They're always talking about that morality and can we have it without God. One of my favorite questions when I talk to religious groups, I get it every time, and I wait for it, because I have an answer for it: They will stand up and they will ask "If there is no God, what stops you from raping and killing everyone you want to rape and kill? What stops you from doing that?" And my answer is: You're absolutely right. I have raped and killed every single person I want to rape and kill. AND THE NUMBER IS ZERO, YOU EVIL MOTHER FUCKER. IT'S ZERO. IT'S A GOOSE EGG. AND IF YOUR NUMBER IS A POSITIVE INTEGER, SIGN UP FOR JAIL, GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR SOCIETY."

- Penn Jillette

Thanks to Free Thought (another forum member) for the quote.
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26-08-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-08-2015 08:46 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 08:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Noble Grasshopper,

I've already written that I did indeed handle my personal incredulity at the claim by looking at a Hebrew Bible personally. No, I did not look at all 600,000-plus Hebrew letters of the Torah, or even only every 53rd letter of said 600,000--although there are several strong computer systems dedicated to similar propositions as you are undoubtedly aware. Yes, I DEFINITELY appreciate your question here--it is a fine indication that you would find such a happenstance utterly compelling. THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT ISSUE.

I never said I would find it "utterly compelling". It has been demonstrated that codes such as you describe can be found in any kind of literature whatsoever, whether or not they were deliberately put there. And even if they were deliberately put there, what does that prove? As unbeliever has repeatedly asked: so what?

Quote:PS. I have no heartfelt reasons for rejecting Allah et al. I have only logical reasons. For example, since the Bible says Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Noble Qu'ran says specifically that Jesus is not the Son of God, both cannot be logically true unless we descend to the lowest forms of relativistic "truth".

Very good. Christianity and Islam contradict each other. At most one of them can be true. Bertrand Russell observed that this is true of religions in general. He thought the most likely conclusion to be that none of them were true. What makes you think Christianity is special compared to all the other religions? Why is it any more likely to be true than Islam or Hinduism?

Quote:PPS. Certainly, it helps to see all the evil that other religions do and the depths of moral depravity that my skeptic friends resort to, while I am basically trying to use love and logic only to convert people.

PPPS. Please don't bother to protest how moral atheists are... my moral standard includes the Decalogue, and I'll highlight where atheists break it with *s:

*There is one God
*No idols
*Don't blaspheme
*Honor Shabbat
Honor your parents
*No murder (Jesus said no unrighteous anger qualifies/amplifies this statement)
*No adultery (Jesus said lust qualifies this statement)
*No theft (TTA members daily rob my peace of mind and joy with their rude statements)
*No lying (must I explain this one to you?)
*No coveting

Again, so what? Christians also break every one of those, and there's no evidence that they break them any less often than atheists. Prisons are full of Christians. The "morality" argument is bogus.

"One of the things that we end up doing when we're defending atheism, is we end up talking about morality. We end up talking about how can someone be moral without God. How can someone be moral without a supreme being looking over them for reward and punishment. They're always talking about that morality and can we have it without God. One of my favorite questions when I talk to religious groups, I get it every time, and I wait for it, because I have an answer for it: They will stand up and they will ask "If there is no God, what stops you from raping and killing everyone you want to rape and kill? What stops you from doing that?" And my answer is: You're absolutely right. I have raped and killed every single person I want to rape and kill. AND THE NUMBER IS ZERO, YOU EVIL MOTHER FUCKER. IT'S ZERO. IT'S A GOOSE EGG. AND IF YOUR NUMBER IS A POSITIVE INTEGER, SIGN UP FOR JAIL, GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR SOCIETY."

- Penn Jillette

Thanks to Free Thought (another forum member) for the quote.

Thanks for sharing Mr. Jillette's emotional appeal. My response to Mr. Jillette, who is a much nicer person as an atheist than most anyone at TTA, would include the following:

Why is YOUR desire to rape and kill no one CORRECT morality? Why is the rapist operating with INCORRECT morality, since rape helps propagates the species? Why is SOCIETY sometimes demanding morality above SPECIES perpetuation. How do you have a society without a species to populate it?

If you would please tell me where in Mr. Jillette's statement I might find where he actually answered the opponent's question...? Can you do that for us?

PS. Is Penn Jillette calling people rude names the equivalent of "Honor your parents, don't steal, etc.?" Do you REALLY not see a difference between the new atheist "morality" and faith-based morals?

**

The Torah code matters because it would be a superhuman effort to put it in there. We have to ask why someone(s) put this code in consistently across over 600,000 Hebrew letters without telling anyone it was in there...!

**

Christianity, Islam, etc.? Let me give you my enhanced version of Pascal's wager:

Most of the people who've ever proselytized you or I are Christians. Christianity is the religion where God cares enough about you to show you the way. Go with that belief system. If the Qu'ran is true, atheists AND Christians are in a world of trouble. Where are the Muslims who care enough about our soul to preach to us? Based on my "wager" one would have to admit that if Jesus is the true God, one cannot meet Jesus and say, "Gosh, people never told me I was lost."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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