problem of evil and suffering
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04-09-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 01:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, rather, God is self-evident in the minds of those (most people) who haven't sullied their conscience fully (via skepticism).

"Those who believe believe."

Wonderful. Tautologies are hardly a convincing argument, and it's still not evidence in any way, shape, or form, but still, it's not strictly incorrect. Well done.

(04-09-2015 01:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...since you didn't give God a time limit when you prayed in your youth for revelation that I am the answer to your prayers.

Ahhh, it is to laugh.

(04-09-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So subjectively speaking, to you rape is always wrong. If it is wrong 100% of the time, you are saying it is an objective fact that rape is wrong. A fact is "on" 100% of the time.

You don't understand what those words mean, do you?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-09-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 01:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:00 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  So you can only see him if you already believe that he exists? Handy.


Well, no. I'd hardly call that the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing would probably, again, involve a response from Azathoth, though I wouldn't be particularly enthused to receive a reply from your god either - he's not the most pleasant chap.

Regardless, I have prayed at multiple times in my life - mostly when I was very young, as my family is devoutly Catholic, so I got hauled to church a lot despite thinking the whole thing was extremely silly even then. There was never any reply.

Of course, the response to this is either that I have admitted to not loving God even when I was young, so of course I couldn't expect a response, or that I am outright lying - but then we're just getting into personal attacks rather than dealing with the question in hand, which is: how do you know that your prayers have actually been answered?

No, rather, God is self-evident in the minds of those (most people) who haven't sullied their conscience fully (via skepticism).

Sullied their conscience fully (via skepticism)? Fuck off, you arrogant, delusional asshole.

Quote:And no, neither response is correct. It would be more correct, perhaps, to say that since you didn't give God a time limit when you prayed in your youth for revelation that I am the answer to your prayers. So now you know.

You are entered into the Most Delusional Post category.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-09-2015, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 04:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-08-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you that cocksure that you are unwilling to pray to God? What's the worst thing that would happen? No answer, so that you would know for certain life is objectively meaningless?

I prayed for a decade. ... Crickets ... Crickets ... No answer. So according to you now I know for certain life is objectively meaningless. Don't bother me none. Means I gotta make my own meaning. Which is how it should be instead of abrogating that responsibility to snake oil salesman and charlatans which is a sign of a weak mind.

#sigh
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04-09-2015, 04:46 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
how the fuck do these double posts keep happening?

#sigh
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04-09-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 04:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  how the fuck do these double posts keep happening?

Gawd did it.

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05-09-2015, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2015 09:44 AM by Airportkid.)
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(28-08-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Are you that cocksure that you are unwilling to pray to God?

As I step out the front door and lock it about to embark on a trip of several days length I'm always hit with doubt that I'd remembered everything. I'd long ago countered most of this doubt by telling myself that whatever I may have forgotten I'll just buy if I need it, but the doubt still emerges, every time.

Is anyone absolutely 100% certain their trip preparations are ironclad? Certainly not even the most meticulous planning could foresee unexpected circumstances that force on the spot improvisation, a sudden airline strike, a museum that catches fire, a hotel that didn't post your reservation correctly because you told them the 9th when you meant to say the 19th, etc.

I bring this up because I don't see how any true believer can sleep at night. They believe they have an appointment before a judge who will consign them to an eternity of bliss or to an eternity of indescribable torture, and they believe these places of bliss and torture are real, and the sentence of eternity is real.

I just don't see how it's possible for a functioning human mind to be rock solid certain it'd gotten ALL its ducks in a row before showing up at this appointment. It's before a judge who even the believers concede isn't fully understood, a judge who by his published history is capricious, vicious, sadistic, petty and vengeful. How could any believer be dead certain his papers are TRULY in order - or that the judge would even HONOR impeccable papers?

I don't think it's humanly possible, frankly. If I REALLY believed in something like that not only would I never get any sleep I'd never get out of bed. I'd be paralyzed by terror that I'd do something or even just THINK something that would get on the record and be flung at me by that judge.

So Q's question above applies to him much more than it applies to me or other atheists. We atheists aren't burdened by an extraneous anxiety that nothing could possibly alleviate except by losing belief. How can Q and his fellow believers be so cocksure they didn't forget to pack something, or turn off the stove, as they prepare for that last journey?
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09-09-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 01:58 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 01:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think you may misunderstand the nature of fact checking and evidence research. There is neither peer-reviewed research proving the miracle claims of the Bible nor peer-reviewed research disproving the miracle claims. We should not expect archaeology to find the wood of the ark or the wood of the true cross. There is, however, MUCH archaeology and history verifying that the NT and OT writers were contemporaneous to their periods. The NT was written "then" and not centuries after. We can proceed from there to understand the many conversions among Jewish people who could have pointed out then and there if there was no Jesus performing miracles then resurrecting in Jerusalem.

Horseshit. No serious theological scholar thinks they were written "right then". The closest we have are the writings of Paul, and they are very different from the Gospels, when examined closely. The Gospels have all kinds of problems, and any serious (even Christian, just not fundamentalists who refuse to honestly consider the question for fear of defying The Truth™ as their churches demand it be) scholar knows it. No one expects the Ark because there are a thousand reasons we can demonstrate the Flood did not happen. Like most of what's in your Wholly Babble, it never happened. It's a story.

And as for the "miracle claims", no we have no research "disproving" magical events of 2000 years ago because how could we? But we do have the same group of Christians today who claim to make the same sort of miracles by the same mechanism as the original claimants, and groups like CSICOP have clearly demonstrated them to be false via the Scientific Method.

(04-09-2015 01:21 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Prayer doesn't change God's mind or will, you have that right. Prayer, however, changes those who pray. Take out the mystic mumbo jumbo of heathen prayer and you have prayer is talking to God. Talking to my Father helps me feel right and understand my dilemmas.

Thanks.

Just like meditation helps Buddhists feel right and understand their dilemmas. And it has measurable benefits to the body, in terms of blood pressure, stress hormone levels, etc., identical to the results of serious prayer... yet even they do not claim to be talking to God. You know what else changes people? Learning the skeptical mindset, so they stop accepting bologna and can learn to accept the world as it is, rather than as they wish it to be.

One writer compiled 140 pieces of evidence for John and Luke/Acts alone demonstrating they were written contemporaneous to the events. And no NT writer ever mentions the Roman wars and diaspora post-70 AD.

I would also disbelieve in most modern "miracles" per Hebrews 1:

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

We have the NT and miracles are not now required to authenticate speakers and writers of God's Word... the Word is already recorded.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 02:12 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 01:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, rather, God is self-evident in the minds of those (most people) who haven't sullied their conscience fully (via skepticism).

"Those who believe believe."

Wonderful. Tautologies are hardly a convincing argument, and it's still not evidence in any way, shape, or form, but still, it's not strictly incorrect. Well done.

(04-09-2015 01:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...since you didn't give God a time limit when you prayed in your youth for revelation that I am the answer to your prayers.

Ahhh, it is to laugh.

(04-09-2015 01:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So subjectively speaking, to you rape is always wrong. If it is wrong 100% of the time, you are saying it is an objective fact that rape is wrong. A fact is "on" 100% of the time.

You don't understand what those words mean, do you?

I didn't say those who believe, believe. I pointed out that those who disbelieve, do so via a conscious, ongoing effort. Some maintenance of these efforts is evident among TTA's more active posting members.

I do understand that "objective" touches fact and "subjective", opinion.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(04-09-2015 04:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you that cocksure that you are unwilling to pray to God? What's the worst thing that would happen? No answer, so that you would know for certain life is objectively meaningless?

I prayed for a decade. ... Crickets ... Crickets ... No answer. So according to you now I know for certain life is objectively meaningless. Don't bother me none. Means I gotta make my own meaning. Which is how it should be instead of abrogating that responsibility to snake oil salesman and charlatans which is a sign of a weak mind.

Did you give God a time limit when you prayed? If you prayed "God, reveal yourself to me," I'm quite possibly the answer to your prayers. Happy to help, you know.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-09-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(05-09-2015 09:40 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Are you that cocksure that you are unwilling to pray to God?

As I step out the front door and lock it about to embark on a trip of several days length I'm always hit with doubt that I'd remembered everything. I'd long ago countered most of this doubt by telling myself that whatever I may have forgotten I'll just buy if I need it, but the doubt still emerges, every time.

Is anyone absolutely 100% certain their trip preparations are ironclad? Certainly not even the most meticulous planning could foresee unexpected circumstances that force on the spot improvisation, a sudden airline strike, a museum that catches fire, a hotel that didn't post your reservation correctly because you told them the 9th when you meant to say the 19th, etc.

I bring this up because I don't see how any true believer can sleep at night. They believe they have an appointment before a judge who will consign them to an eternity of bliss or to an eternity of indescribable torture, and they believe these places of bliss and torture are real, and the sentence of eternity is real.

I just don't see how it's possible for a functioning human mind to be rock solid certain it'd gotten ALL its ducks in a row before showing up at this appointment. It's before a judge who even the believers concede isn't fully understood, a judge who by his published history is capricious, vicious, sadistic, petty and vengeful. How could any believer be dead certain his papers are TRULY in order - or that the judge would even HONOR impeccable papers?

I don't think it's humanly possible, frankly. If I REALLY believed in something like that not only would I never get any sleep I'd never get out of bed. I'd be paralyzed by terror that I'd do something or even just THINK something that would get on the record and be flung at me by that judge.

So Q's question above applies to him much more than it applies to me or other atheists. We atheists aren't burdened by an extraneous anxiety that nothing could possibly alleviate except by losing belief. How can Q and his fellow believers be so cocksure they didn't forget to pack something, or turn off the stove, as they prepare for that last journey?

Perfect love drives away fear. "Be anxious for nothing... make your requests known to God via prayer... you will have peace."

I'm indeed driven as you wrote about the reality of Heaven and Hell to witness. However, in my own instance, I didn't trust Christ because I realized Heaven and Hell were real destinations--I trusted Christ because He spoke truth.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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