problem of evil and suffering
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13-07-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
Q, that is such a complete non-sequitur to the topic. The OP says "why did God create someone to tempt people to be bad?" and your response is "PEOPLE SHOULD PAY FOR THEIR SINS!".
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13-07-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(13-07-2015 01:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And here's kind of another place where TTA members make no sense to my way of thinking. By staunchly rejecting substitutionary atonement from Jesus Christ (or anyone) and insisting MEN SHOULD PAY FOR THEIR OWN MORAL CRIMES while extolling the atheist authors who trumpet God is unjust when he punishes, they are utterly self-contradictory.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but this is the facts of the case. Atheists, be CONSISTENT. Please!

God is unjust to punish because he is just has responsible of the crimes than the criminal themselves. Judges have to impartials so are executionners. Refusing to help someone in danger or in dire need of medical help when the situation present no threat to your own safety is a serious crime and harmful to nay organised group. Not only that, he doesn't punish the guilty, but also the innocents and even the victims. BE CONSISTENT. If God has powers he has responsabilities.
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13-07-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(13-07-2015 01:41 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Q, that is such a complete non-sequitur to the topic. The OP says "why did God create someone to tempt people to be bad?" and your response is "PEOPLE SHOULD PAY FOR THEIR SINS!".

the response to this has always been free will. an example sometimes given is if you place a hungry child unattended in a room with chocolates on the table you know the child will eat it even if its the only option of like starve or something. thats what gods problem(his book is about). My free will example with the starving kid might be a little off srry
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13-07-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(13-07-2015 01:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And here's kind of another place where TTA members make no sense to my way of thinking. By staunchly rejecting substitutionary atonement from Jesus Christ (or anyone) and insisting MEN SHOULD PAY FOR THEIR OWN MORAL CRIMES while extolling the atheist authors who trumpet God is unjust when he punishes, they are utterly self-contradictory.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but this is the facts of the case. Atheists, be CONSISTENT. Please!

Uhhh...what? Ehrman's book looks at how the bible explains suffering. Atheists can't conclude that god is unjust when he punishes because they don't believe in god. They are merely granting the point that if a god existed, he/she would have a lot of explaining to do for all the suffering that goes on.


I'm calling two fouls on this play:

[Image: r9AEuF5.jpg]

And for your substitution of atonement comment:
[Image: D04Rnjt.jpg]

**Crickets** -- God
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13-07-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
ehrman suggests that the best way to explain biblical suffering is through predesitination where god simply knows everything in advance and you dont have control over anything. so things like wars and disease are engineered from "above" no pun intended
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13-07-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(13-07-2015 02:42 PM)nintendo2190 Wrote:  ehrman suggests that the best way to explain biblical suffering is through predesitination where god simply knows everything in advance and you dont have control over anything. so things like wars and disease are engineered from "above" no pun intended

If you accept the idea of an omniscient and omnipotent god than we can say that all things including wars, disease and suffering, are happening with some form of consent from that deity. Predestination is a very grim concept and remarkably hopeless, but it has the virtue of being consistent with a particular perception of god.
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13-07-2015, 09:04 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
I've been waiting for someone to use those! Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-07-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
Holding God accountable for the suffering in the world is not inconsistent with rejecting the "substitution" of Jesus (for the previously-stopgap method of slaughtering animals for the necessary blood sacrifice... why Christians can't see how insane the idea of BloodMagic is, outside of use by evil priests in a D&D game, I will never know) because in either suppositional case, God still created the suffering conditions of the universe/world, just as He created the ruleset that requires blood-sacrifice magic to atone for human behaviors (that apparently anger the Almighty exactly just as much as they anger the slave-owning, misogynistic, patriarchal, genocidal, bigoted Bronze-Age Tribal Warrior-Sheepherder Priests of the 13th-7th century BCE... gofigure).

There's really no getting around the theistic argument that the Creator of the Universe must, by definition, have defined every single aspect of this universe, including the connection between our behavior and the blood of birds/sheep, our souls, and the half-human "son of God" who was blood-sacrificed as a "substitute" according to those same rules. It does not make God better if that is the supposition we accept, it makes God worse... by far. For fuck's sake, in D&D the Chaotic Evil clerics of Erythnull, the god of slaughter, are less horrible than that!

So that leaves the other supposition, that the Creator simply didn't care enough to avoid problems that could easily have been avoided, like deleting much of the suffering in the world. See, for instance, pediatric cancer is a totally reasonable thing if the universe is billions of years old and life here happened by random mutation of biochemically-replicating polymers... but not if there was a Designer. Then he's just an asshole.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-07-2015, 01:19 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(13-07-2015 11:23 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Ironically when one inserts 'god' into the equation of suffering, all sorts of answers emerge with each answer actually causing more questions. Ehrman addresses how biblical writers attempted to respond to this and he does a pretty good job.

Using god to explain either add more qustions or cause to stop looking for real answers; neither option is good.

(13-07-2015 11:23 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Suffering, in many religious minds, links back to evil and there's an entire branch of theology (theodicy) that attempts to explain this away. Free will, love of particular persons, mysterious ways, and goddoneit, are just a few areas that religious people will throw at people in attempt to bring belief back in line.

And all are hilarious. One can wonder if they believe in it.

(13-07-2015 11:23 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  However, when you view suffering outside of a system defined by god you basically come up with a simple answer. Suffering happens. Shit happens. But each of us is responsible for the private and the public meanings of our own lives, as far as we think we can control our fate and foresee the consequences of our actions. To confront human evil, to respond to human suffering—our own or others—and to cope with natural disasters, we’re on our own. We must deal with these afflictions individually and collectively. We can’t rely on supernatural powers to help us. In reality, many people think they can but they never have. This is why we have evolved thus far as a species, dependent on others to move us all forward.

Couldn't agree more.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-07-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
It's not "blood magic". Pagans would drink blood to inherit properties of their enemies/animal sacrifices, believers shed blood to prefigure Christ's atoning death.

God does have power and responsibilities. He takes care of a lot of things, including providing many blessings pertaining to life and this world for everyone, including atheists, and He took responsibility for our sin on the cross.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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