problem of evil and suffering
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16-07-2015, 01:55 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(15-07-2015 12:10 PM)Melanie Wrote:  Yes. Christians are right. The problem of evil and suffering is because of US--not God or anyone or anything else. The responsibility is OURS and OURS alone.

They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.

(15-07-2015 12:10 PM)Melanie Wrote:  It's also the same reason why there are psychopaths and sociopaths. Humans are given free will. We can choose who we want to be.

We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-07-2015, 07:36 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(15-07-2015 11:43 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  There it is, folks, Christianity in a nutshell:

"Because there are things in this world that have predictable (bad) outcomes, which may be avoided with particular (good) behavior, we will now extrapolate there are other, invisible things that are not of this world that will have (bad) outcomes not of this world, which may be avoided with particular (good) behavior... all after you die, of course. And even though all the things in this world are predictable, testable, and understandable, and the things on my Holy Napkin are unpredictable, untestable, and incomprehensible to an outsider closely examining them, you should ignore all that and Just Believe It. Because... scary, right?"

That actually sounds like many religions in a nutshell. The difference with biblical Christianity is that salvation doesn't rest upon behavior. Yes, there are some judgments and rewards in the next world that rest upon behavior. To deny this is to say that we can do anything and not reap what we sow in THIS world, which is a total denial of reality.

But salvation is rooted in the cross, death and resurrection of Christ, not what we "do". Please learn this. Memorize this, if need be!

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-07-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 01:55 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2015 12:10 PM)Melanie Wrote:  Yes. Christians are right. The problem of evil and suffering is because of US--not God or anyone or anything else. The responsibility is OURS and OURS alone.

They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.

(15-07-2015 12:10 PM)Melanie Wrote:  It's also the same reason why there are psychopaths and sociopaths. Humans are given free will. We can choose who we want to be.

We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-07-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:55 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.


We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Keep you bullshit about your favorite invisible friend to yourself. I'm not interested in your delusion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-07-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:55 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.


We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Bullshit. Total bulshit. There were 14 million people diagnosed with cancer in 2012 through no fault of their own. Babies are born with defects, tsunamis and earthquakes have killed millions of people over the millennium causing undue suffering for families. The Black Death killed 20 million, the Spanish Flu infected 500 million (read that again...that's FIVE hundred million) and killed another 20 million. My great uncle died from it while serving as a medic during WW I.

Your whole idiotic religion is based on masochistic suffering and self blame which needs some fucked up sacrifice to alleviate. It's just another version of teenagers cutting themselves to attain relief from self loathing with the added carrot of an afterlife. Without self blame your whole religion falls down like a house of cards. Christianity is a particularly mentally sick religion causing undue guilt for millions.

Suffering is simply part of life and science has alleviated more real suffering than all the religions on this planet.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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16-07-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:55 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.


We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Yes, those people should be freed from suffering. How is it justified-able that we judge people for what they do if God hardly even does it? Doesn't matter anyway as this life doesn't matter as long as we believe in the salvation of the cross and Jesus we are fine. There is no need for any living and suffering existence to remain if we just would let Gods worshipers get sent to heaven by all those criminals quicker.

If god hardly judges or cares about what people do, then sure he does let evil exist and doesn't care to stop it because it doesn't matter to him. Your biblical take promotes this, while you somehow again show arrogance as if your biblical Christianity is the only biblical one. You could have "biblical" Christianity and actually ignore the random guy who never met a living Jesus who somehow knows the answer is just believe..

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-07-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(15-07-2015 01:35 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2015 12:10 PM)Melanie Wrote:  Yes. Christians are right. The problem of evil and suffering is because of US--not God or anyone or anything else. The responsibility is OURS and OURS alone.

Since there's no reason to believe there is any god, or anything else, the problem is ours to deal with where we can but it isn't all of our making. Things like natural disasters are out of our control but preparation and cleanup are our responsibility.

Quote:It's also the same reason why there are psychopaths and sociopaths. Humans are given free will. We can choose who we want to be.

Do you honestly believe that people like that actually choose to be that way? Do you see any part played by chemical imbalances in the brain that are out of their control? Or severe physical and/or psychological abuse contributing to it?

Not to be rude, and please don't take this the wrong way, but given the fact that their actions are voluntary and they enjoy what they are doing and this apparent psychological/neurological abnormality supposedly features impulses of which they have no control over, there is a dissonance with this conclusion. Free will doesn't just mean the ability to control one's own actions, but also their thoughts and feelings and thus to shape one's personality. So in order for something to be enacted out of one's free will, that includes one's desires, intentions and thoughts being carried out from within the confines of one's will.

People say that Psychopaths are born innately self-centered individualists. They are also cold, callous, unemotional, remorseless, heartless, unsympathetic and unempathetic. They are also ego-maniacal, have delusions of grandeur and are therefore incorrigible. They are also known to be bullies, financial parasites, very promiscuous, irresponsible, glib, charming and very machiavellian. Now, these are the essential qualities that people frown upon--these are all the qualities that overlap so closely with things that are synonymous with morality and ethicality. People have even compared sociopaths and psychopaths to having the emotional traits and mentality of a child--being self-centered and selfish and deadset in getting what he/she wants, WHEN they want it. Moreover, our initial impressions when we see people commit crimes or abuse other people are that they are plain and simple lawbreakers or criminals--not disordered. How does something that is supposedly a disorder have qualities and traits that have such great overlap with plain and simple regular criminal/immoral/unchaste behavior? Acting like a child and being selfish and self-centered and not caring about the welfare of others are not characteristics of some neurological disorder. A mental/neurological abnormality does not make people act in ways that are illegal/immoral/unethical. When we see someone who is plain selfish and self-centered and egotistical, we are turned off by their behavior and it arouses disgust or displeasure for not only their behavior, but for THEM too. Take a non-murderous, non-criminal psychopath for example, who manipulates and bullies other people and feel as if he's superior to everyone else. The victim and those around him want retribution enacted on this coward who bullies the undeserving recipient of the abuse. Not just his behavior, but also his attitude and his personality. Now, why would people be angry at a guy for not only how he treats people physically, but also his personality traits if his arrogance and narcissism came from some faulty wiring in the brain? Because being egotistical and selfish are CHOICES, just like our behavior. When we see people acting as though they are better than others and look down and undermine those they perceive beneath them, we do not say "something's wrong with him/her", we just call them an asshole. When we see some nasty slut whoring around, having multiple sexual relationships with multitudes of men, we do not think "she must have some faulty wiring in the brain", we just call her a nasty, low-down, dirty harpie. When we see someone acting callously towards another, we do not say "he must've been born without the capacity to feel guilt or empathy" we just call them heartless bastards. Even in murder and rape cases, when we see someone sadistically and methodically carrying out malice-murder we do not say "he must have some faulty wiring in the brain"--not until recently within the subsequent one/two centuries.

But society has conditioned themselves into believing that becoming something that features a myriad of traits that, normally are all by choice, are by genetic heritage and/or environmental conditions. And speaking of being the product of abuse--enough with that. I've heard this crap be used dozens of times before! People all over the internet will give you accounts of how they were physically, emotionally, verbally, psychologically and even sexually abused by strangers, parents, siblings, cousins and even aunts and uncles and how in spite of all that, aren't even abusive themselves, let alone criminal or psychopathic/sociopathic. So let's put aside the crap about all this nature/nurture shit which, in retrospect is just an alternate, more subtle way of exonerating personal responsibility under the mere illusion of still holding people responsible for their behavior in spite of their genetics. No one or nothing makes you have a personality that is difficult, destructive or otherwise unpleasant. And that is also the hypocrisy behind the label "personality disorder".

A personality disorder is defined as a maladaptive personality which interferes with someone's ability to connect with their peers or to otherwise function normally in society. Now, a personality disorder, given the technical definition of it, I would think is similar to a mental illness, or any other physiologic illness, disability or abnormality in which it negatively impacts/inhibits one's ability to function normally in some way or another. Because of this, it would automatically evoke a negative emotional reaction to it, in that the sufferer would want to be rid of this disorder/illness/affliction. Even in the case of a character disorder, even Narcissists feel personal discomfort. But Antisociality (a catch-for-all term for sociopathy, psychopathy, etc.) is the only breed of "illness" in which the person is totally fine as they are. Many even boast of the fact they are the way they are.

Now tell me--is Antisociality really a disorder? Do people boast of having Cancer? Do people boast of having Anthrax? Do people boast of having Genital Herpes? Do people boast of having HPV or HIV? Do they boast of having Schizophrenia?

And another thing we need to address is the seeming glorification or otherwise normalization of this "disorder". People often promote the idea that psychopaths are needed because their tough-mindedness and their callousness are what makes businesses boom. Granted, there are industries that are undoubtedly cutthroat and dog-eat-dog, but even these managers and bosses reprimand those under their authority in a authoritative manner that almost borders on being authoritarian for the ultimate well-being of their workers and the world at large. Even the most tough-minded non-sociopathic employers have some degree of compassion and empathy for others. The psychopath and sociopath DOES not have the people's best interests at heart. The psychopath only considers THEIR own needs and THEIR own desires before the welfare of others. In other words, high-functioning psychopaths who choose to contribute positively to society do not do so for its own sake--but for an ulterior motive: their own self-interest.

Is that the type of society you want? Is that what we need? A world where there are people, CEOs and rulers alike manipulating others for their own self-interest and then treating them as sentient equivalents to objects to be used and then throw them away like trash when they've outlived their purpose for the psychopath? A world permeated with selfishness, machivellianism, ruthlessness & sanctimony veiled by false show of humility, care, compassion and altruism? That does not sound like the description of some mere personality/neurological/psychological disorder. That sounds like tyranny and anarchy--a disastrous and broken world waiting to happen. Also, if Antisociality is a true disorder, not only would it cause personal discomfort, but it would also NOT be glorified. If it is a disorder, glorifying Antisociality is therefore like glorifying Cancer, Heart Disease, Lyme Disease, West Nile Virus and Smallpox. Taking this into deeper perspective, if you yourself aren't a psychopath, you would/should wonder "what has the world come to?"

Manipulating others as if they're objects for your own convenience, lying in furtherance of your own goals, cheating behind your partner's back for your own sensual gratification, being possessed of lust, greed, larceny and all of the other carnal, worldly and sinful desires that are transgressions of both legal and moral/divine law are not characteristics of a "neurological disorder". They are characteristics of deviancy. These people do not suffer from a personality disorder--they are perfectly content with who and what they are. And everything they say, think, feel and do is in full consent of the will and they don't feel the least regretful about it. Their so-called impulses and "innate" callousness does not make them resent their deeds. They do not resent having these impulses. In fact, they enjoy it all. Which is why they do not evoke sympathy from other people, let alone their victims--there's nothing wrong with them.
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16-07-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:55 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  They are about as right as broken clock. Believers don't usually claim that evil and suffering is caused by sociobiological factors, rather they blame inherent sinfulness of humanity. And they do it to absolve their god from responsibility. So they may be right in some strange way but their road to more or less correct conclusion is deeply flawed I would say.


We can choose? I always wanted to be son of Bill Gates? Strangely it didn't worked.
But jokes aside - you don't believe in other factors other than something vague called free will? Our genes and nurture does not affect us?

I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Wondering what my 5-month-old nephew did that justified his suffering, agony, and death from accidental arsenic poisoning. What, possibly, could a little baby have sown to reap in such a fashion? Even if we limit the deaths and suffering to humans who have not had an opportunity to exercise their "free will" to "sin" (quotes around offensive terms), every miscarriage and natural disaster that kills a fetus inside a pregnant woman or infant is a cruelty of god, if your conception of god includes agency and interference at the human level, towards an entity that has not yet sinned. Inevitable conclusion: your god is a monster. So glad that he is just a warped fantasy.

Unfortunate chance in a universe where justice is acknowledged as a limited and man-made construct is incredibly more ethical, not to mention plausible, than a god who would allow the suffering and death of so many innocents.
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17-07-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 11:18 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Bullshit. Total bulshit. There were 14 million people diagnosed with cancer in 2012 through no fault of their own. Babies are born with defects, tsunamis and earthquakes have killed millions of people over the millennium causing undue suffering for families. The Black Death killed 20 million, the Spanish Flu infected 500 million (read that again...that's FIVE hundred million) and killed another 20 million. My great uncle died from it while serving as a medic during WW I.

Your whole idiotic religion is based on masochistic suffering and self blame which needs some fucked up sacrifice to alleviate. It's just another version of teenagers cutting themselves to attain relief from self loathing with the added carrot of an afterlife. Without self blame your whole religion falls down like a house of cards. Christianity is a particularly mentally sick religion causing undue guilt for millions.

Suffering is simply part of life and science has alleviated more real suffering than all the religions on this planet.

I would argue with you that not everyone with cancer was without fault, such as smokers, but really it seems to me your problem is death and mortality. All people die. Not all people truly live or live fully for eternity. Death is a great enemy, which has been conquered. Consider...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(16-07-2015 01:27 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I call baloney. I claim that most of what you and I suffer is caused wholly by us. Look around you and--wake up, please. Love your spouse and see what you get. Shun her and see. Eat right or don't and see what you get. Smoke and drink or don't. This is nonsense you are promulgating. I don't absolve God of His responsibility to have us reap what we sow, nor should you. Nor DO you, since you insist substitutionary atonement is wrong and that people should pay for their own crimes. Or should we empty the jails so that we can help God help the poor criminals not suffer any longer?

Dude, get real.

Yes, those people should be freed from suffering. How is it justified-able that we judge people for what they do if God hardly even does it? Doesn't matter anyway as this life doesn't matter as long as we believe in the salvation of the cross and Jesus we are fine. There is no need for any living and suffering existence to remain if we just would let Gods worshipers get sent to heaven by all those criminals quicker.

If god hardly judges or cares about what people do, then sure he does let evil exist and doesn't care to stop it because it doesn't matter to him. Your biblical take promotes this, while you somehow again show arrogance as if your biblical Christianity is the only biblical one. You could have "biblical" Christianity and actually ignore the random guy who never met a living Jesus who somehow knows the answer is just believe..

I can understand your lament about "god hardly judging or caring about what people do" in my naturalist mindset, but as a Christian, clearly He does care. Floods and etc. are judgments. Dying on the cross and performing miracles is caring. Sending preachers (like me, praise Jesus!) into the world is especially caring.

And don't take that the wrong way, either. I try to share the gospel many times weekly to get the Word out.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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