problem of evil and suffering
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20-07-2015, 10:16 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(17-07-2015 06:14 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:(16-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: That actually sounds like many religions in a nutshell. The difference with biblical Christianity is that salvation doesn't rest upon behavior. Yes, there are some judgments and rewards in the next world that rest upon behavior. To deny this is to say that we can do anything and not reap what we sow in THIS world, which is a total denial of reality. Um, I spend much time on doctrines of salvation--after all, I witness to many people weekly, many of them Christians who err in these doctrines. I guarantee I think about all these things and scripture 20 times as often as you do. The Bible is consistent in both testaments that trusting God will work out well. The Bible is consistent that man errs and that God forgives not based upon good deeds or works of the Law. However, I'm reluctant to go further in argument with an atheist about the mechanism of salvation before we establish some definitions of terms first--such as whether you believe in the Laws of Excluded Middle and Noncontradiction, whether you believe in absolute truth, and in how we may successfully review scripture to learn if it is truth. If your main point is "Christians have different stripes of belief," I agree, and we can move on. Thanks. I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior. |
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20-07-2015, 10:17 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(18-07-2015 03:10 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:(18-07-2015 02:52 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote: Define "conquer death", because you know... humans still die. Death is not the end, and after-death can be the blessings of life and joy. Keep it simple... sorry for using jargon. I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior. |
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20-07-2015, 10:54 AM
(This post was last modified: 20-07-2015 11:01 AM by julep.)
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
I see. Have you considered how people cause others to suffer, including innocent children? A crack mom can cause her children all kinds of emotional and developmental difficulties. Again, we can all pontificate anger against God--or we can devote as many resources as possible to helping the crack moms...
[/quote] Pointing out the ethical shortcomings of the concept of god that you present has zero to do with being angry at your god. It also has nothing to do with how I as a human react to the suffering of other humans. Why you think that there is some kind of either/or situation here is incomprehensible. Humans definitely cause one another suffering. Suffering can also be caused by other agencies, like gravity (falling out of a tree) or nature (being attacked by a grizzly bear). I also agree that allocating resources to minimize or eliminate suffering is laudable, where possible. No human suffering is actually caused by god, as god is imaginary. I do assert that the deity you worship, by your own description of its actions and motives, causes suffering that is disproportionate and ineffective, and that that means that your god is not good, nor is your god strategically competent. Even if it existed, it would not be worthy of worship. Edited to add: What makes me angry is not a nonexistent god, it is believers' defense of that god as good, wise, etc. In addition to being logically inconsistent, nonsense about god's using suffering for a greater purpose, the poor being always with us, etc., have been used to excuse inaction and the preservation of social divides that condemn large numbers of humans to misery-filled lives. In addition, of course, to the outright infliction of suffering on those who don't believe or don't believe the correct way. |
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20-07-2015, 11:52 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-07-2015 10:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:(17-07-2015 11:50 AM)julep Wrote: Thanks for your sympathy. Although I do not believe that my nephew is in heaven, as there is no evidence for heaven, I appreciate that the idea of an infant in hell (no evidence for hell, either) is troubling to you. Quote:I see. Have you considered how people cause others to suffer, including innocent children? A crack mom can cause her children all kinds of emotional and developmental difficulties. Again, we can all pontificate anger against God--or we can devote as many resources as possible to helping the crack moms... Crack moms causing babies to suffer is a drop in the bucket compared to all the natural disasters throughout history and the subsequent misery these disasters have caused. Take a look at this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_na...death_toll If one were to add up all the natural disasters in history, over 1 billion people, (waaaay over a billion) have died at the hands of nature, And your imaginary god doesn't lift a hand to prevent any of this. Apparently your god has never read the wise old Ben Franklin saying..."An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." He's too busy being jealous, having hissy-fits and threatening people with extortion to prevent disasters and diminish suffering. What you believe in is an imaginary, fictional character though, so it's all a moot point. Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump: He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere, Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where; Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind, Stigmatical in making, worse in mind. |
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20-07-2015, 11:52 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-07-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Um, I spend much time on doctrines of salvation--after all, I witness to many people weekly, many of them Christians who err in these doctrines. I guarantee I think about all these things and scripture 20 times as often as you do. Granting that anything at all in the bible could be held as anything other than a storybook: my main point is that the bible contradicts itself and is therefore one of the most confusing books ever put together. Surely the god who inspired said book could have eliminated this confusion by presenting something that at least stood in agreement. The very fact that supposed contradictions MUST be rationalized on the believer's end proves that it contradicts itself. If it didn't there would be no reason to harmonize it and discussions like this would not be needed. I gave very specific examples on a few of the different standards for salvation in the NT, none of which were addressed. This doesn't surprise me though because they can't be addressed. It's just that simple. The bible states multiple ways to salvation. It's one big circular cluster. If you believe the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of god with no contradictions, then you spend your time harmonizing all the contradictions that are in there (or you just ignore them as most do). If you believe the bible isn't infallible and that the men who wrote it made mistakes....then you rely on your own way of interpreting it while trying to decide which parts should be read at face value and which parts should not. All of which 2000 years later can be completely different than originally intended. It's really a lose / lose either way. **Crickets** -- God |
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20-07-2015, 06:47 PM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:(18-07-2015 03:10 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: It's also odd for him to declare it conquered when it's a system to him entirely created by his Gods choice on how to alter humanity and existence. It sounds as if humans have an out via the loophole god created to counter his judgement and rules of reality. There is no evidence that there is anything beyond death. Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims. Science is not a subject, but a method. ![]() |
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21-07-2015, 07:36 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
All,
Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts: * Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do * God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will * Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior. |
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21-07-2015, 08:03 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: All, What is fallen about mankind if man was given one free will choice to not break? Did Adam have free will if the tree of knowledge was never planted there? If Jesus is God, how does that apply to humanity as evidence of free will? I'd like evidence of normal not god men having life after death to believe in it. Non comparable situations are poor uses of evidence. "Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson |
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21-07-2015, 08:14 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: All, None of those are facts - they are your unsupported assertions. Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims. Science is not a subject, but a method. ![]() |
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21-07-2015, 08:26 AM
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RE: problem of evil and suffering
If someone thinks man is doing things other animals don't do or think to do, they have clearly never read Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan.
"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson |
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