problem of evil and suffering
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-07-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 08:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set

None of those are facts - they are your unsupported assertions.

You're giving him far too much credence..

All he has is a poorly written children's bedtime story.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 08:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set

None of those are facts - they are your unsupported assertions.

Also none of it, if it were true, contrasts God as the primary cause of those issues.

Man has fallen(Because of the system God created) and they can do things animals can't do(because God designed the creatures that way) God granting humanity free will is what makes him the primary causer of the ills free will causes. Even in his self boxed in claims he is wrong.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2015 09:15 AM by dancefortwo.)
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set


Pfffft. Not one of those are "facts" It's a short list of wishful thinking.


Like I've said before, you have to cling like crazy to the "man is fallen" crap because without it you have nothing. Fallen man is like a security blanket for you christians. You scream like a two year old toddler if someone tries to take it away from you otherwise you think you have nothing else to live for.

Grow up!

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like dancefortwo's post
22-07-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 08:03 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set

What is fallen about mankind if man was given one free will choice to not break? Did Adam have free will if the tree of knowledge was never planted there?

If Jesus is God, how does that apply to humanity as evidence of free will? I'd like evidence of normal not god men having life after death to believe in it. Non comparable situations are poor uses of evidence.

When you and I make a decision against conscience (much of, most of) the time our conscience has pangs. Take a minute and imagine doing something you shouldn't. How do you feel? Adam and Eve felt that way.

Now, roll forward to you and I--it's way too easy to blame everything on God, or Adam and Eve--I do neither. You and I feel/know we shouldn't do certain things--we get the "willies" and do them anyway. We will be judged.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(20-07-2015 11:52 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Um, I spend much time on doctrines of salvation--after all, I witness to many people weekly, many of them Christians who err in these doctrines. I guarantee I think about all these things and scripture 20 times as often as you do.

The Bible is consistent in both testaments that trusting God will work out well. The Bible is consistent that man errs and that God forgives not based upon good deeds or works of the Law. However, I'm reluctant to go further in argument with an atheist about the mechanism of salvation before we establish some definitions of terms first--such as whether you believe in the Laws of Excluded Middle and Noncontradiction, whether you believe in absolute truth, and in how we may successfully review scripture to learn if it is truth.

If your main point is "Christians have different stripes of belief," I agree, and we can move on.

Thanks.

Granting that anything at all in the bible could be held as anything other than a storybook: my main point is that the bible contradicts itself and is therefore one of the most confusing books ever put together. Surely the god who inspired said book could have eliminated this confusion by presenting something that at least stood in agreement. The very fact that supposed contradictions MUST be rationalized on the believer's end proves that it contradicts itself. If it didn't there would be no reason to harmonize it and discussions like this would not be needed.

I gave very specific examples on a few of the different standards for salvation in the NT, none of which were addressed. This doesn't surprise me though because they can't be addressed. It's just that simple. The bible states multiple ways to salvation.

It's one big circular cluster. If you believe the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of god with no contradictions, then you spend your time harmonizing all the contradictions that are in there (or you just ignore them as most do). If you believe the bible isn't infallible and that the men who wrote it made mistakes....then you rely on your own way of interpreting it while trying to decide which parts should be read at face value and which parts should not. All of which 2000 years later can be completely different than originally intended. It's really a lose / lose either way.

Are you aware that some of the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary? I think of the Bible as sweet to the believer, rope to hang yourself with for the rebellious.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 09:04 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set


Pfffft. Not one of those are "facts" It's a short list of wishful thinking.


Like I've said before, you have to cling like crazy to the "man is fallen" crap because without it you have nothing. Fallen man is like a security blanket for you christians. You scream like a two year old toddler if someone tries to take it away from you otherwise you think you have nothing else to live for.

Grow up!

All,

A pertinent point several of you made is brought up in the above response.

"Man is fallen" isn't crap, and actually explains a lot of the things in our world. I've recently returned from a missions trip to a third world nation. In the first world, some of you may have trouble "seeing" mass rape, exploitation of children, extreme poverty and hunger, many of which can be ended or not by men, who are a fallen species.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
Oooooooooooooor by the fact that we're a (barely) intelligent ape, and still do a lot of very animalistic things.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(21-07-2015 08:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

Everything you say regarding God as the primary cause of suffering goes against these facts:

* Man is fallen and can behave in a degenerate manner, doing things other animals simply won't do or can't even conceive to do

* God granted man free will. The inability to choose in the manner of one's nature (my nature is both good and evil) removes free will

* Of course there is evidence of life after death--once we establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable fact via inductive and deductive reasoning we're set

None of those are facts - they are your unsupported assertions.

No, he's absolutely right. We are free to choose. To say that some people are born evil or psychopathic mitigates the individual's capacity of free will. Because if they were born without the ability to love or care, that cancels the whole point of love being a choice. It also means that the faulty wiring of the brain is the primary cause of one's personality and not their own plain and simple voluntary actions. And in that light, people are NOT responsible for their thoughts and feelings, which upon deeper perspective, also mitigates free will. It also contradicts the fact that personality traits are entirely voluntary. People can choose to be empathetic, compassionate, caring and to abide by their consciences or not. Science is also gradually discovering this fact.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 01:33 PM
problem of evil and suffering
(22-07-2015 10:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 11:52 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Granting that anything at all in the bible could be held as anything other than a storybook: my main point is that the bible contradicts itself and is therefore one of the most confusing books ever put together. Surely the god who inspired said book could have eliminated this confusion by presenting something that at least stood in agreement. The very fact that supposed contradictions MUST be rationalized on the believer's end proves that it contradicts itself. If it didn't there would be no reason to harmonize it and discussions like this would not be needed.

I gave very specific examples on a few of the different standards for salvation in the NT, none of which were addressed. This doesn't surprise me though because they can't be addressed. It's just that simple. The bible states multiple ways to salvation.

It's one big circular cluster. If you believe the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of god with no contradictions, then you spend your time harmonizing all the contradictions that are in there (or you just ignore them as most do). If you believe the bible isn't infallible and that the men who wrote it made mistakes....then you rely on your own way of interpreting it while trying to decide which parts should be read at face value and which parts should not. All of which 2000 years later can be completely different than originally intended. It's really a lose / lose either way.

Are you aware that some of the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary? I think of the Bible as sweet to the believer, rope to hang yourself with for the rebellious.

Again, you've not answered any of my propositions from before.

Also you said: "the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary"

Provide examples please? And after you provide those you will need to show that the bible was specifically talking about itself when it said those things. After you are finished with that, if you even get that far, you can explain to me how you get out of the circular argument that you have just created. The bible cannot say that the bible has set traps for people without begging the question.

Please, please, please l encourage you to learn the basic logical fallacies. They will help you much more in your arguments.

Finally, tell me why you are a Christian? Why do you believe in the bible?

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: problem of evil and suffering
(22-07-2015 12:28 PM)Melanie Wrote:  No, he's absolutely right. We are free to choose. To say that some people are born evil or psychopathic mitigates the individual's capacity of free will. Because if they were born without the ability to love or care, that cancels the whole point of love being a choice. It also means that the faulty wiring of the brain is the primary cause of one's personality and not their own plain and simple voluntary actions. And in that light, people are NOT responsible for their thoughts and feelings, which upon deeper perspective, also mitigates free will. It also contradicts the fact that personality traits are entirely voluntary. People can choose to be empathetic, compassionate, caring and to abide by their consciences or not. Science is also gradually discovering this fact.

You may not like the implications of something but that doesn't mean it is not correct. Things aren't facts because you'd prefer it that way.

You also jump from "some people" to all people without recognizing that some people may actually have "faulty wiring" and be unable to choose even to the extent that "normal" people can.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: