proof of psychic energies?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-09-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
(25-09-2013 03:10 PM)LaFeske Wrote:  Thank you for the suggestion.
What would I do to get started doing all that?
You start by doing a *lot* of reading. The scientific method is not a clearly defined concept but the general approach is well understood - *test* hypotheses. Try to understand *why* something works the way it does. Formulate a *model* which is basically your tentative idea for what's really happening. For example, you suggested that this guy does his light-bulb trick because of similarity to the way an electric eel generates electricity. That is a hypothesis, and it's a decent one 'cos you can test it. You just need to understand how an electric eel works and see if his stuff is the same.

If you were the first guy to study electric eels you'd have to go catch one (dicey proposition) and dissect it and so forth, but they've already been studied in some detail so your probably safe with wikipedia for a *layman's* understanding. If you wanted to publish research referencing electric eel biology though, you'd need some better sources - to a certain extent, because it's impossible to do experiments from the ground up every time, the scientific community has a trust relationship. Peer review is what keeps scientists honest. Certain journals are regarded as the best in their fields because they're well known, thousands of people read them and the quality of peer review is high. That means that we can trust what they say, in general, because experts have vetted it for us. A lot of science is just finding good references Tongue

Then you devise an experiment to check your hypothesis against actual reality, and perform it. There is every possibility that you get results you don't expect. Then you need to carefully check back. Did I make a mistake ? Is the theory wrong but only in some minor way ? Did I contaminate my experimental results. And the big one: am I wrong ? Sometimes (rarely) experiments give results so far from expected, and so clearly not a result of experimental error, that whole bodies of theory have to be re-evaluated. For example, the Michelson-Morley experiment demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that the then-current ether theory for how electromagnetic waves propagate was up the pole. Took a while to sort out that mess.

Quote:Would it take a lot of time? (I have a very full life already)
Yes. But unless you do it, or someone else does (possibly at your instigation), your claims remain unproven. You could write a basic letter outlining the ideas you have on the subject and send it to a few people, see what they think. Unfortunately in a field that's regarded as the preserve of whack-jobs, most people will probably bin it immediately. There does exist a crowd in America, CSICOP, I think they're called, who do try to exhaustively investigate and *disprove* these kinds of things more or less (as far as I can tell) as a public service.

It's good though, because they do real science and of course the real test of a scientific hypothesis is whether or not it stands up under the most brutal scrutiny. I think that's pretty much how you tell if someone's selling snake-oil tbh. Pseudo-scientists tend to go to great lengths to avoid subjecting their theories to rigorous testing, whereas real scientists can't wait to shred the shit outta their dumb ideas.

Quote:Also, there's got to be someone on this site that lives in NY or near me. I live in the Kingston area. It's just 90 miles from NY city. I would be very happy to meet with someone if it would help others grow in knowledge in some way.
You sound like an interesting dude, sadly I'm in deepest darkest Africa where the only things we have are goats and crappy internet connections.

Quote:Again, thanks. Smile
Is cool Smile

I know I wrote a whole buncha shit here about how you can do stuff to prove these claims - but it is a lot of work and it's not everyone's cup of tea. So it's more how you *could* go about this if you wanted to. But... ja, I'm spreading the gospel: learn a bit more about the scientific method. It's incredibly powerful and interesting... Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
25-09-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
Also, new discoveries in science usually end up having 10 more unanswered questions popping up, so the more you try to figure out, the more you realize that you know nothing of a subject, as its limits seem boundless.

BUT it's good for job security! Big Grin

[Image: 3d366d5c-72a0-4228-b835-f404c2970188_zps...1381867723]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cheapthrillseaker's post
25-09-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
(25-09-2013 03:13 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  It seems most people promoting energies and auras and whatnot don't understand what the opposition is all about. It's not that we (as in people who aren't superstitious) believe everything outside mainstream science is wrong, it's that we don't believe in things with zero evidence for them. Psychic powers, auras, and energy forces have zero evidence going for them.

If you want to argue the case for them, let's see some evidence. If we can get a proper scientific test that shows us there is some merit in the idea, then great! Revolutionary! But that has yet to happen. It's always some anecdotal account or a YouTube video. If there really is some kind of force that people can control at will, then there is nothing stopping the practitioners from demonstration in a controlled environment. You'd think someone somewhere in the world who can harness these amazing powers would live in a country where there are such things as scientists and high resolution video cameras.

Thanks. And, yes, I completely understand. I feel the same way. Why isn't there more proof of this in the mainstream? I suspect it's for several reasons and it seems three of them are:

1) Much of it is often unpredictable and so just those who happen to be there get to witness it... and once in a while someone is there with something that can record it, which unfortunately usually isn't a Red or Alexa camera. lol (As an example: I have accurately predicted the deaths of multiple people, pets, car wrecks, an earthquake, first and last names of people I would meet the next day, events, etc, etc, etc - all with witnesses present. BUT WHERE WAS THAT F**KING CAMERA AND TEAM OF SCIENTISTS!? lol God Damn it! Not again!) Tongue

2) When one has developed enough understanding of it and can reproduce it at will, it still takes a great deal of confidence for this stuff to "flow" in such a way that it will manifest. And, there's not many things as confidence shaking as a bunch of angry onlookers just waiting for you to fall on your face and fail.

3) There's like a million people who want it for everyone 1 person who has either figured it out or is gifted with it. And, thus, the ridiculous and absurd litter the Internet with claims, videos of total bullshit, and the like. And, so good people such as yourself do not get a chance to see the real - and, those who do the real are real people with normal busy lives, who have no Censored desire to be in a circus or let groups of sheltered people poke and prod and and mock them, causing so much so stress that they cannot get in that place to reproduce it, thus making matters worse. Take me for example:

I have a wife and 5 kids, have heavy responsibilities, have incredible time constraints on my free time - and so thus even making the sacrifice of time to get on this forum to hunt for other non-religious, scientific-minded practitioners is a big deal. And, what do I get hit with, instantly? The same thing I got hit with years ago when I tried this last: the task of writing one reply after another to good folks who have not yet experienced these things, who live in a world that (rightfully so) fosters in them the view that all this stuff is bullshit. So, why do you not get to see this stuff and some of us do? I suspect two main reasons:

1) People who do do it keep to themselves. I mean, who has time, or desire, to sign up on a forum or youtube with the intent to help give info to others who are seeking for deep knowledge only to get quickly buried under a mound of often demeaning responses? Who has time for that sh*t? Why do you not get to see it? Because when it tries to reach you, you automatically dismiss it instead of automatically, honestly, and intensely investigating it. This is the same thing that religious people do; "I already know what system of thought true so don't bother me with new discoveries or insight".

2) You maybe cannot accept that some things in life are not visceral. I know this is maybe a bad place to say this but it's true. Art is not just visceral. Love is not just visceral. Moving the body in a dance that "looks good" is not just visceral. Your "favorite" color is not a visceral thing. Etc, etc, etc. The parts of you that you have ignored, is where this good stuff abides..... but, it's not just visceral. It's something more. It's where mental vision, this thing we call "feeling", the "gut" instinct, art, fluid wisdom, and the like - all reside. It's when one spends as much time with that part of themselves as they do the mental part of themselves, that these things begin to bud and grow.

Anyway. Got to get to the other responses and then cook dinner for the kids. I trust you will consider my thought as a whole and choose to brave that untapped frontier that's in there somewhere. Wink

[Oh, I've done it now!! I've told the truth. So, let the response-avalanche of the self-assured's begin]. Wink

No worries, it's all good. Smile

"In both religion and science, some people are dishonest, exploitative, incompetent and exhibit other human failings." Rupert Sheldrake

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived & dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." John F Kennedy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
Can you predict a death of anyone ? Or is it something which is not voluntary ? 'Cos if you can do anyone, do me Wink

I dunno what you mean by not visceral ? Supernatural ? Outside the realm of science ?

There are many things we wot not of. But until and unless there's some science going on I'm happy to discount them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
PS take a break whenever - there's no obligation to answer. Frequently someone who's pushing an alternate viewpoint does get inundated.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
What exactly do you experience? I hope to know so that I can better understand where you're coming from. So far the little amount of posts here have me thinking you believe yourself to be a psychic.

Which type? Clairvoyant? Clairaudient? Medium?

Or something within this list perhaps?

[Image: 3d366d5c-72a0-4228-b835-f404c2970188_zps...1381867723]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2013, 05:38 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
(25-09-2013 04:50 PM)LaFeske Wrote:  
(25-09-2013 03:13 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  It seems most people promoting energies and auras and whatnot don't understand what the opposition is all about. It's not that we (as in people who aren't superstitious) believe everything outside mainstream science is wrong, it's that we don't believe in things with zero evidence for them. Psychic powers, auras, and energy forces have zero evidence going for them.

If you want to argue the case for them, let's see some evidence. If we can get a proper scientific test that shows us there is some merit in the idea, then great! Revolutionary! But that has yet to happen. It's always some anecdotal account or a YouTube video. If there really is some kind of force that people can control at will, then there is nothing stopping the practitioners from demonstration in a controlled environment. You'd think someone somewhere in the world who can harness these amazing powers would live in a country where there are such things as scientists and high resolution video cameras.

Thanks. And, yes, I completely understand. I feel the same way. Why isn't there more proof of this in the mainstream? I suspect it's for several reasons and it seems three of them are:

1) Much of it is often unpredictable and so just those who happen to be there get to witness it... and once in a while someone is there with something that can record it, which unfortunately usually isn't a Red or Alexa camera. lol (As an example: I have accurately predicted the deaths of multiple people, pets, car wrecks, an earthquake, first and last names of people I would meet the next day, events, etc, etc, etc - all with witnesses present. BUT WHERE WAS THAT F**KING CAMERA AND TEAM OF SCIENTISTS!? lol God Damn it! Not again!) Tongue

2) When one has developed enough understanding of it and can reproduce it at will, it still takes a great deal of confidence for this stuff to "flow" in such a way that it will manifest. And, there's not many things as confidence shaking as a bunch of angry onlookers just waiting for you to fall on your face and fail.

3) There's like a million people who want it for everyone 1 person who has either figured it out or is gifted with it. And, thus, the ridiculous and absurd litter the Internet with claims, videos of total bullshit, and the like. And, so good people such as yourself do not get a chance to see the real - and, those who do the real are real people with normal busy lives, who have no Censored desire to be in a circus or let groups of sheltered people poke and prod and and mock them, causing so much so stress that they cannot get in that place to reproduce it, thus making matters worse. Take me for example:

I have a wife and 5 kids, have heavy responsibilities, have incredible time constraints on my free time - and so thus even making the sacrifice of time to get on this forum to hunt for other non-religious, scientific-minded practitioners is a big deal. And, what do I get hit with, instantly? The same thing I got hit with years ago when I tried this last: the task of writing one reply after another to good folks who have not yet experienced these things, who live in a world that (rightfully so) fosters in them the view that all this stuff is bullshit. So, why do you not get to see this stuff and some of us do? I suspect two main reasons:

1) People who do do it keep to themselves. I mean, who has time, or desire, to sign up on a forum or youtube with the intent to help give info to others who are seeking for deep knowledge only to get quickly buried under a mound of often demeaning responses? Who has time for that sh*t? Why do you not get to see it? Because when it tries to reach you, you automatically dismiss it instead of automatically, honestly, and intensely investigating it. This is the same thing that religious people do; "I already know what system of thought true so don't bother me with new discoveries or insight".

2) You maybe cannot accept that some things in life are not visceral. I know this is maybe a bad place to say this but it's true. Art is not just visceral. Love is not just visceral. Moving the body in a dance that "looks good" is not just visceral. Your "favorite" color is not a visceral thing. Etc, etc, etc. The parts of you that you have ignored, is where this good stuff abides..... but, it's not just visceral. It's something more. It's where mental vision, this thing we call "feeling", the "gut" instinct, art, fluid wisdom, and the like - all reside. It's when one spends as much time with that part of themselves as they do the mental part of themselves, that these things begin to bud and grow.

Anyway. Got to get to the other responses and then cook dinner for the kids. I trust you will consider my thought as a whole and choose to brave that untapped frontier that's in there somewhere. Wink

[Oh, I've done it now!! I've told the truth. So, let the response-avalanche of the self-assured's begin]. Wink

No worries, it's all good. Smile

Dude, if you really think you can do this, there's $1,000,000 waiting for you.

Can you make the time for a million bucks? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
25-09-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
I, or any of you, can achieve the energetic effects in the OP with a well-hidden TENS unit. That would make the apparently electric energy... electricity. Idea If you remember the Addams Family, Uncle Fester could light a light bulb, too. It wasn't a Hollywood film trick, just a normal stage-magic trick.

The chopstick-through-the-table is a setup... he took them to his own familiar ground, probably prepared ahead of time. A crack or hole in the underside of the table is preexisting, and a good solid push finishes the job. If he "couldn't penetrate the Formica" from one side, why could he penetrate the wood AND the Formica from the other side? Answer... he couldn't find the weakened spot from the first side.

He seems a charming, well-meaning humbug, but he's still a humbug. Wink

Edit: There's a more in-depth debunking here.

I AM he who is called... cat furniture.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes I Am's post
25-09-2013, 06:12 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2013 06:20 PM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: proof of psychic energies?
As someone who has studied Asian martial arts, history, and culture, I'm open to the concept of Qi (jp: Ki, 气). As pointed out above, if real, it is similar to what electric eels do, essentially making qi a form of bio electricity. If he can do it, anyone can do it with enough training; this means it certainly isn't supernatural. However, I must stress that I'll remain skeptical of the phenomenon until otherwise proven scientifically.

I read a decent book about John Chang a few years ago entitled The Magus of Java. To be honest, it is a mix of biographical information and wuxia (martial arts fiction). Like all Chinese martial arts practitioners, he traces his particular Daoist meditation/martial arts sect to a famous Chinese historical figure (the name of which escapes me). Chang claims the sect has 72 levels of achievement. (72 being a prominent number in Asian numerology. It usually is a symbol for infinity.) He says the only people to ever reach the top level are Bodhidharma (6th cent.) and Zhang Sanfeng (c. 11th cent.), two high mythologized holy men connected with Chinese martial arts--the former is considered the founder of Shaolin kung fu and the latter is considered the founder of Taiji (tai-chi). Historians, however, have disproven their connection to these styles. Anyways, Chang talks about higher-level practitioners who he knew in his youth. They were supposedly about to--and this is where the martial arts fiction comes into play--punch huge boulders in half with little effort and kill entire villages with energy blasts from their hands. Think of the 72 levels as similar to the power levels on Dragon Ball Z.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2013, 06:17 PM
RE: proof of psychic energies?
(25-09-2013 06:12 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  As someone who has studied Asian martial arts, history, and culture, I'm open to the concept of Qi (jp: Ki, 气). As pointed out above, if real, it is similar to what electric eels do, essentially making qi a form of bio electricity. If he can do it, anyone can do it with enough training; this means it certainly isn't supernatural. However, I must stress that I'll remain skeptical of the phenomenon until otherwise proven scientifically.

I read a decent book about John Chang a few years ago entitled The Magus of Java. To be honest, it is a mix of biographical information and wuxia (martial arts fiction). Like all Chinese martial arts practitioners, he traces his particular Daoist meditation/martial arts sect to a famous Chinese historical figure (the name of which escapes me). Chang claims the sect has 72 levels of achievement. (72 being a prominent number in Asian numerology. It usually is a symbol for infinity.) He says the only people to ever reach the top level are Bodhidharma (6th cent.) and Zhang Sanfeng (c. 11th cent.), two high mythologized holy men connected with Chinese martial arts--the former is considered the founder of Shaolin kung fu and the latter is considered the founder of Taiji (tai-chi). Historians, however, have disproven their connection to these styles. Anyways, Chang talks about higher-level practitioners who he knew in his youth. They were supposedly about to--and this is where the martial arts fiction comes into play--punch huge boulders in half with little effort and kill entire villages with energy blasts from their hands. Think of the 72 levels as similar to the power levels on Dragon Ball Z.

What eels do is well understood. They have specialized cells and structures that we do not.

Qi == baloney. But it's a handy Scrabble® word.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: