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16-09-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 11:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  I don't think that prevention of repeat offenses has to be punishment.

Punishment suggests making the offender suffer.

Prevention of repeat offenses suggests no such thing.
I agree and I hope you find a way to achieve it, Dom, I think many have sought that ambition!

Someone on the radio, hagjng done jury service, felt sorry for the young lad in the Rick fir petty theft. Then they read out his orevious - this was his 94 criminal offence. At what point can it be consudered to be a mental illness requiring incarceration in place of treatment?

Illiteracy is a big problem, the bloke downstairs from me was functionally illiterate from the notes he left me. He ruined the flat, ruined the dog he acquired and, after being evicted, was possibly the person who smashed the rear windows and fire bombed the shed, twice.

What was the cause of his problem? Low intelligence, poor parenting, illiteracy, virtual joblessness (he did odd jobs for his mates who were contractors), all the above?

<devil's advocate mode> How much would it cost to give him, and every other person just in his age group (20s) adequate suitable treatment? How much to just stick them in a box for 22 hours a day? Betcha the box is cheaper.

Can society, yours or mine, afford the hundreds, maybe thousands, of trained therapists and teachers and the facilities they would need? And look after all the innocent poor and elderly who need medical and social care, the latter maybe after working and paying their dues for 50 years.

As the population increases, as the inequality between the haves and have nots gets wider the problem will probably get worse.

Is there any possible solution? Can't see one that is contemplatable. All else is eugenics, Social Darwinism or worse.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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16-09-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 12:51 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 11:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  I don't think that prevention of repeat offenses has to be punishment.

Punishment suggests making the offender suffer.

Prevention of repeat offenses suggests no such thing.
I agree and I hope you find a way to achieve it, Dom, I think many have sought that ambition!

Someone on the radio, hagjng done jury service, felt sorry for the young lad in the Rick fir petty theft. Then they read out his orevious - this was his 94 criminal offence. At what point can it be consudered to be a mental illness requiring incarceration in place of treatment?

Illiteracy is a big problem, the bloke downstairs from me was functionally illiterate from the notes he left me. He ruined the flat, ruined the dog he acquired and, after being evicted, was possibly the person who smashed the rear windows and fire bombed the shed, twice.

What was the cause of his problem? Low intelligence, poor parenting, illiteracy, virtual joblessness (he did odd jobs for his mates who were contractors), all the above?

<devil's advocate mode> How much would it cost to give him, and every other person just in his age group (20s) adequate suitable treatment? How much to just stick them in a box for 22 hours a day? Betcha the box is cheaper.

Can society, yours or mine, afford the hundreds, maybe thousands, of trained therapists and teachers and the facilities they would need? And look after all the innocent poor and elderly who need medical and social care, the latter maybe after working and paying their dues for 50 years.

As the population increases, as the inequality between the haves and have nots gets wider the problem will probably get worse.

Is there any possible solution? Can't see one that is contemplatable. All else is eugenics, Social Darwinism or worse.

Well, lets say the perp did something pretty bad and chances are there would be a repeat or more. So, it's not right to expose all the innocents to him, because we have a justice system in order to protect members of society.

Firstly, no reason why he can't have a choice - life in prison (and I mean life) or being executed. Either way society is protected.

How to fund the prison? I think we can come up with small cells with a bed and a pot, and very basic nutrition. Well, no one wants to live like that, and since we are not after punishing but after protecting society, we can allow the prisoner to do exactly what he would do on the outside - work for a living, buy shit to enjoy, rent a bigger cell, and whatever. The number of types of jobs that can be done from "home" increases all the time. There is no reason prisoners should be different from any other member of society - except for being disallowed access to the rest of the population. A part of their wages can even be used for restoration to their victims. The can be productive member of society, pay taxes, own big screen TVs and everything - as long as they are kept away from the opportunity to hurt a member of society.

What has changed is the possibility of working from "home". Prisoners working conjure up the images of hard labor and chain gangs. That is totally not necessary anymore. There is absolutely no reason why prisoners need to cost us money, and there is no reason they should not be able to enjoy normal creature comforts. Unless, of course, we wish the wrath of god on them and hold on to paying for their livelihood so we can make them miserable...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-09-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 01:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 12:51 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  I agree and I hope you find a way to achieve it, Dom, I think many have sought that ambition!

Someone on the radio, hagjng done jury service, felt sorry for the young lad in the Rick fir petty theft. Then they read out his orevious - this was his 94 criminal offence. At what point can it be consudered to be a mental illness requiring incarceration in place of treatment?

Illiteracy is a big problem, the bloke downstairs from me was functionally illiterate from the notes he left me. He ruined the flat, ruined the dog he acquired and, after being evicted, was possibly the person who smashed the rear windows and fire bombed the shed, twice.

What was the cause of his problem? Low intelligence, poor parenting, illiteracy, virtual joblessness (he did odd jobs for his mates who were contractors), all the above?

<devil's advocate mode> How much would it cost to give him, and every other person just in his age group (20s) adequate suitable treatment? How much to just stick them in a box for 22 hours a day? Betcha the box is cheaper.

Can society, yours or mine, afford the hundreds, maybe thousands, of trained therapists and teachers and the facilities they would need? And look after all the innocent poor and elderly who need medical and social care, the latter maybe after working and paying their dues for 50 years.

As the population increases, as the inequality between the haves and have nots gets wider the problem will probably get worse.

Is there any possible solution? Can't see one that is contemplatable. All else is eugenics, Social Darwinism or worse.

Well, lets say the perp did something pretty bad and chances are there would be a repeat or more. So, it's not right to expose all the innocents to him, because we have a justice system in order to protect members of society.

Firstly, no reason why he can't have a choice - life in prison (and I mean life) or being executed. Either way society is protected.

How to fund the prison? I think we can come up with small cells with a bed and a pot, and very basic nutrition. Well, no one wants to live like that, and since we are not after punishing but after protecting society, we can allow the prisoner to do exactly what he would do on the outside - work for a living, buy shit to enjoy, rent a bigger cell, and whatever. The number of types of jobs that can be done from "home" increases all the time. There is no reason prisoners should be different from any other member of society - except for being disallowed access to the rest of the population. A part of their wages can even be used for restoration to their victims. The can be productive member of society, pay taxes, own big screen TVs and everything - as long as they are kept away from the opportunity to hurt a member of society.

What has changed is the possibility of working from "home". Prisoners working conjure up the images of hard labor and chain gangs. That is totally not necessary anymore. There is absolutely no reason why prisoners need to cost us money, and there is no reason they should not be able to enjoy normal creature comforts. Unless, of course, we wish the wrath of god on them and hold on to paying for their livelihood so we can make them miserable...

Much though I can see giving the perp a choice between a life of incarceration and death, in some not too unpleasanr manner, I can see lots of people waving banners and writing thousands of letters and emails at the very idea!

I think America has the largest prison population in the first world, Britain not that far behind per capita.

This gives you the numbers, As a side issue this gives you the 2011 religious breakdown.

I have not yet found the most important numbers for here, a breakdown by category of crime - how many petty perps, who might improve with help, and how many of those who should never see the light of day again. (Deja vu here, sure I have done this search before!)

The sheer numbers mitigate against any positive action in the minds of economists. Politicians face questions like, ''Why should those thieving shits get a better education than my kid?'' Even if the latter may not be true.

I have taught adult literacy and numeracy and know, full well, that some are simply incapable of learning even the basics. Some have no patience and bad tempers. The good ones were just lazy kids or wanted a good time in their pre/teens but genuinely regret that later. One was a 15 year old who was disruptive, but her father kept telling her she was thick and would never learn maths. She wasn't, she was extremely intelligent but the local schools had no funds for remedial schooling.

Charities try to do remedial work but it is actually not that easy to set up. It was managed in Gloucester Prison, then they closed it.

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16-09-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 10:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  But, is punishment really justice? Should we not simply want the offender rendered incapable of repeating a similar act? Is punishment revenge? Have we bought into the religious concept of god's wrath?

I suspect that it would be more accurate to suggest that religion has tapped into our propensity for vengance and retribution. Those concepts are hardly just but it's difficult to deny the evolutionary advantage of demonstrating that you are willing and able to inflict suffering on those who have wronged you.

None of the options are particularly pallatable:

- I'd like to think that most of society has moved beyond the "eye for an eye" retaliatory system. Leave me my illusions. The drawbacks are pretty obvious and the advantages slim to non-existent.

- Captivity has the advantage of keeping the offender away from society while punishing the offender. It's costly and ranges from low efficacy to counterproductive.

- Modifying an offender so that they are unable/unwilling to reoffend has serious implications a la Clockwork Orange and we're still working on the prototypes.

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16-09-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 02:27 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 01:47 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, lets say the perp did something pretty bad and chances are there would be a repeat or more. So, it's not right to expose all the innocents to him, because we have a justice system in order to protect members of society.

Firstly, no reason why he can't have a choice - life in prison (and I mean life) or being executed. Either way society is protected.

How to fund the prison? I think we can come up with small cells with a bed and a pot, and very basic nutrition. Well, no one wants to live like that, and since we are not after punishing but after protecting society, we can allow the prisoner to do exactly what he would do on the outside - work for a living, buy shit to enjoy, rent a bigger cell, and whatever. The number of types of jobs that can be done from "home" increases all the time. There is no reason prisoners should be different from any other member of society - except for being disallowed access to the rest of the population. A part of their wages can even be used for restoration to their victims. The can be productive member of society, pay taxes, own big screen TVs and everything - as long as they are kept away from the opportunity to hurt a member of society.

What has changed is the possibility of working from "home". Prisoners working conjure up the images of hard labor and chain gangs. That is totally not necessary anymore. There is absolutely no reason why prisoners need to cost us money, and there is no reason they should not be able to enjoy normal creature comforts. Unless, of course, we wish the wrath of god on them and hold on to paying for their livelihood so we can make them miserable...

Much though I can see giving the perp a choice between a life of incarceration and death, in some not too unpleasanr manner, I can see lots of people waving banners and writing thousands of letters and emails at the very idea!

I think America has the largest prison population in the first world, Britain not that far behind per capita.

This gives you the numbers, As a side issue this gives you the 2011 religious breakdown.

I have not yet found the most important numbers for here, a breakdown by category of crime - how many petty perps, who might improve with help, and how many of those who should never see the light of day again. (Deja vu here, sure I have done this search before!)

The sheer numbers mitigate against any positive action in the minds of economists. Politicians face questions like, ''Why should those thieving shits get a better education than my kid?'' Even if the latter may not be true.

I have taught adult literacy and numeracy and know, full well, that some are simply incapable of learning even the basics. Some have no patience and bad tempers. The good ones were just lazy kids or wanted a good time in their pre/teens but genuinely regret that later. One was a 15 year old who was disruptive, but her father kept telling her she was thick and would never learn maths. She wasn't, she was extremely intelligent but the local schools had no funds for remedial schooling.

Charities try to do remedial work but it is actually not that easy to set up. It was managed in Gloucester Prison, then they closed it.

Well, yes, it would be a project that would likely require a couple of generations to implement. Like most societal change, first people need to be educated about a number of things, and then change would happen slowly. Although allowing those who are able to work for a living, pay for their keep and upgrade their rooms would not be so hard to implement.

I am mostly just exploring how deeply the concept of punishment is rooted in the more cogent part of the population, and I think I see that we are still either operating on too much base instinct or too much religious conditioning, or both.

Also, the belief in free will is alive and kicking. The more I learn, the less I believe in it. Yes, there is some real time decision making going on. But much of our decision making happens without our even being aware of it. And most certainly we are not conscious of all the factors our brain throws into the pot when we do decide.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-09-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 10:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  But, is punishment really justice? Should we not simply want the offender rendered incapable of repeating a similar act? Is punishment revenge? Have we bought into the religious concept of god's wrath?
I don't really like the term "justice".

I don't support the purpose of "justice" and I don't support the idea of punishing people for moral transgressions.

We aren't god. Moral transgressions aren't a rebellion against our authority. We don't need to control people to get them to conform to what we believe to be moral rights and to avoid what we believe to be moral wrongs.

I do however agree with reparations.
If a person rapes another person, then I think we could take all the assets and much of the future income from the rapist and use that to fund self defence courses and mental therapy for the victim. Of course, taking too much money away from the rapist may force them into a life of degeneracy and crime. So, a bit of a catch 22 there.

I also agree with deterant. and I agree with forcibly removing certain individuals from society, in order to keep the rest of us safe. I don't care if that is life imprisonment or death penalty, just so long as they are no longer a threat.
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16-09-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: punishment
I have a nasty feeling that the concept of punishment for crime is rooted quite deeply in most populations - regardless if country or culture.

Of course, the concept if what a crime is is more flexible. The person enjoying a joint is not, of course, committing a crime in his or her eyes, just being mellow and social... Just one more drink before I drive home, I'm a good driver, I can cope with it... The boss will never miss that pack of pens, he should pay me more any way... So I hit my wife, she damn well needs some discipline, it's her own fault!.. It was an important phone call, why did that idiot walk out in front of me anyway?

All together now, "Some ass hole stole my trash can, he should be chucked in jail for a year!"

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16-09-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: punishment
Hi,

If someone says, "You will be punished" - the meaning of that statement is clear enough.

D.
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16-09-2016, 08:34 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 11:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 11:21 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Nah, merely stopping someone from doing something again isn't enough because plenty of people will weigh the ROI and pull a lot of one-off capers.

Nobody said that one has to allow the offender to repeat the offense - actually, I said the opposite.

Actually, what you said was shouldn't we want the offender rendered incapable of repeating the act, and that's what I said. If all you are doing is rendering the person from doing the act AGAIN then they might weigh that as worth the chance of doing it once because they will be able to get away with it once without true punishment.

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16-09-2016, 11:24 PM
RE: punishment
(16-09-2016 11:33 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  ...
thevremoval of an offender to a place where they are jo longer a threat the public (just the oublic puree) punishment? In the UK there is, supposedly,every effort made to ensure thst any judicial punishment is proportionate and there is no hint of retribution.
...

For the benefit of those who do not speak French or may not know about how the English judicial system evolved from some of the practices brought over by the Normans, I'd better explain the term "oublic purée".

"oublic" is the anglicised version of "oubliette"

ou·bli·ette
noun
- a secret dungeon with access only through a trapdoor in its ceiling.

[Image: xoubliette.jpg.pagespeed.ic.CK5RW45kxM.jpg]

The 'purée' part is a variation on the above (which was a form of solitary confinement) whereby many people were forced into the space intended for one.

Nowadays, we see the same concept manifested in a 'mosh pit' and the Tokyo metro system.

[Image: tumblr_n3h2ifnyyM1t0cg6mo1_250.gif]
[Image: tk4-e1416408408190.jpg?w=580&amp;h=425]

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