qu'ran vs science
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17-06-2012, 11:53 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2012 12:03 AM by Logisch.)
qu'ran vs science
I've recently had the pleasure of interacting with a very kind and open minded muslim. The guy is a very nice fellow. Probably more open minded and easy going than any christian i've ever encountered. In fact he's even been pretty cool about the fact that I'm an atheist. But of course, we've entered that point where he is curious about how I don't believe the qu'ran.

He sent me this:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html


Figured I'd let everyone see it for purposes of debate. It seems to me a lot of it is interpreting things the way people want to see them. Thus far, all the stuff on there that says: "How do you explain this? Well it obviously means this, and here's some scientific stuff" is just that...

For instance: "By heaven furnished with paths;" (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 7)[/b]

I found this to be taken out of context and simply formed to mean whatever they want it to mean. Technically, in context, Surat adh-Dhariyat 7-8 seems to talk about describing something totally different and nothing to do with the solar system.

Edited for "HOLY SHIT FONT SIZE"
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18-06-2012, 05:15 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
Hey look, a scientific discovery.
Hey, my holy book doesn't entirely contradict the discovery.
Now I'll start interpreting the book as having predicted the discovery.

It works for anything from the Bible to Nostradamus.

Now, if any of these discoveries end up being overturned will they also reject the parts of their book that predicted that discovery or will they reinterpret the book once again to match the latest information?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-06-2012, 05:28 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
Yeah pretty much. I tried not to be rude and have a polite conversation with my friend. He is of course very stubborn/indoctrinated..

There's a lot of cherrypicking and confirmation bias in it. Either way, figured someone may find it useful in case anyone ever goes, "OH YEAH? well check out this site!"

To answer your last question I think the answer is: "No because confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance."
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18-06-2012, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2012 09:57 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: qu'ran vs science
Muslims assert that Allah is a later evolution, and indeed the same divine being, (in pre Islamic times), as Yahweh, the god of the other guys, (the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles...the Jewish people, and the Christians). Thus the ONLY issue is the obvious one of continuity. If Allah really IS Yahweh, then "he" is just, if not more ridiculous, than the Yahweh god, (the "God of the Armies", better known to Christians as the "Lord of Hosts"). Even some Christians attempt to say Islam is one of the three "Abrahamics". Historically, this is false.

Yahweh is easily refuted, historically. So the question is, "is Allah, (Ilah) a DIFFERENT deity, or a continuity?". While the claim in Islam is that the deity IS a continuity, in fact it isn't. Allah, upon historical examination, proves to be a pre-Islamic deity. The continuity claim is essential if the claim to a "continuous flow" of revelation is to remain intact. Allah, historically, has been proven to be a PRE-ISLAMIC moon-god. In fact Mecca was originally built as a shrine to the moon-god. The religious claims are shredded by the archaeology, just as happens with the Yahweh claims. Allah, just as Yahweh, had a wife. He was married to the sun goddess, and the stars were the daughters. Just as Yahweh, Allah was not the only god in the house. The popularity of the moon god, began to wane, as astronomers began to predict the moon's cycle, so Arabs began to say that the moon-god was the greatest of the gods, just as Yahweh came to be seen as the one god, when in fact he was one of many. Besides the moon-god, they also worshiped 359 other known gods at the Kabah in Mecca.

The temple of the moon god remained active as a worship site well into the Christian era, and the moon god was worshiped in both North Arabia, and South Arabia in Muhammad's day, and was still the dominant cult. The name of the moon god was "Sin", but it's title was al-ilah, which meant "the deity", (emphasis on "the"), ie meaning this deity was the chief among the gods. The god Il, or "Ilah", was a PHASE of the moon god. Allah was a popular name. Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah", as part of their names. Allah is NEVER defined in the Qur'an. Why ? Because Muhammad was raised in the cult of the moon-god, and he assumed that everyone already knew who he was. Muhammad just went the extra step, (as the later Jews did), and said he was one of many, then was first of many, then the only.

The claim that Allah IS Yahweh is nonsense. Islam is a moon-god cult, AND even if Allah were Yahweh, since Yahweh is nonsense, so is Allah.

Edit : Ever wonder where the crescent moon symbol came from ? .............................. Duh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

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18-06-2012, 06:20 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
(17-06-2012 11:53 PM)Logisch Wrote:  I've recently had the pleasure of interacting with a very kind and open minded muslim. The guy is a very nice fellow. Probably more open minded and easy going than any christian i've ever encountered. In fact he's even been pretty cool about the fact that I'm an atheist. But of course, we've entered that point where he is curious about how I don't believe the qu'ran.

He sent me this:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html


Figured I'd let everyone see it for purposes of debate. It seems to me a lot of it is interpreting things the way people want to see them. Thus far, all the stuff on there that says: "How do you explain this? Well it obviously means this, and here's some scientific stuff" is just that...

For instance: "By heaven furnished with paths;" (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 7)

I found this to be taken out of context and simply formed to mean whatever they want it to mean. Technically, in context, Surat adh-Dhariyat 7-8 seems to talk about describing something totally different and nothing to do with the solar system.

Edited for "HOLY SHIT FONT SIZE"
I read a few of the entries; they were all daft.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-06-2012, 07:59 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
(17-06-2012 11:53 PM)Logisch Wrote:  I've recently had the pleasure of interacting with a very kind and open minded muslim. The guy is a very nice fellow. Probably more open minded and easy going than any christian i've ever encountered. In fact he's even been pretty cool about the fact that I'm an atheist. But of course, we've entered that point where he is curious about how I don't believe the qu'ran.

He sent me this:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html


Figured I'd let everyone see it for purposes of debate. It seems to me a lot of it is interpreting things the way people want to see them. Thus far, all the stuff on there that says: "How do you explain this? Well it obviously means this, and here's some scientific stuff" is just that...

For instance: "By heaven furnished with paths;" (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 7)

I found this to be taken out of context and simply formed to mean whatever they want it to mean. Technically, in context, Surat adh-Dhariyat 7-8 seems to talk about describing something totally different and nothing to do with the solar system.

Edited for "HOLY SHIT FONT SIZE"
None of the material on that site are scientific predictions or a blueprint for how scientific phenomena work.

If you can get a passage out of the Koran the clearly spells out the specifications, processes, and manufacturing to make, say, regeneration of limbs using stem cells or a faster than light warp drive and we can then follow these predictions and build a working artifact from them, then you have a valid scientific prediction.

Until then, the site's authors are just grasping at straws and quote mining the Koran for any passage that resembles modern technology, no matter how remotely it does.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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19-06-2012, 10:47 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
I have seen a major upsurge in Muslims spreading this crap. Someone came to another forum that I frequent and was banned a mere two days after they initially joined. Post after post would start with a link to some stupid "Islam created this list of things," and then the rest would be preaching in the name of allah. They were even warned several times to stop the proselytizing, but they wouldn't shut up.
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19-06-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
(19-06-2012 10:47 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I have seen a major upsurge in Muslims spreading this crap. Someone came to another forum that I frequent and was banned a mere two days after they initially joined. Post after post would start with a link to some stupid "Islam created this list of things," and then the rest would be preaching in the name of allah. They were even warned several times to stop the proselytizing, but they wouldn't shut up.
It's gonna get a lot worse, dude. The religious fundamentalists are 'Pharaoh's Magicians' of the modern day.*



*This is in reference to the biblical story of the Exodus wherein Moses would perform miracles and wonders before Pharaoh which, eventually Pharaoh's own magicians eventually could not duplicate.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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20-06-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
(18-06-2012 06:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Muslims assert that Allah is a later evolution, and indeed the same divine being, (in pre Islamic times), as Yahweh, the god of the other guys, (the Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles...the Jewish people, and the Christians). Thus the ONLY issue is the obvious one of continuity. If Allah really IS Yahweh, then "he" is just, if not more ridiculous, than the Yahweh god, (the "God of the Armies", better known to Christians as the "Lord of Hosts"). Even some Christians attempt to say Islam is one of the three "Abrahamics". Historically, this is false.

Yahweh is easily refuted, historically. So the question is, "is Allah, (Ilah) a DIFFERENT deity, or a continuity?". While the claim in Islam is that the deity IS a continuity, in fact it isn't. Allah, upon historical examination, proves to be a pre-Islamic deity. The continuity claim is essential if the claim to a "continuous flow" of revelation is to remain intact. Allah, historically, has been proven to be a PRE-ISLAMIC moon-god. In fact Mecca was originally built as a shrine to the moon-god. The religious claims are shredded by the archaeology, just as happens with the Yahweh claims. Allah, just as Yahweh, had a wife. He was married to the sun goddess, and the stars were the daughters. Just as Yahweh, Allah was not the only god in the house. The popularity of the moon god, began to wane, as astronomers began to predict the moon's cycle, so Arabs began to say that the moon-god was the greatest of the gods, just as Yahweh came to be seen as the one god, when in fact he was one of many. Besides the moon-god, they also worshiped 359 other known gods at the Kabah in Mecca.

The temple of the moon god remained active as a worship site well into the Christian era, and the moon god was worshiped in both North Arabia, and South Arabia in Muhammad's day, and was still the dominant cult. The name of the moon god was "Sin", but it's title was al-ilah, which meant "the deity", (emphasis on "the"), ie meaning this deity was the chief among the gods. The god Il, or "Ilah", was a PHASE of the moon god. Allah was a popular name. Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah", as part of their names. Allah is NEVER defined in the Qur'an. Why ? Because Muhammad was raised in the cult of the moon-god, and he assumed that everyone already knew who he was. Muhammad just went the extra step, (as the later Jews did), and said he was one of many, then was first of many, then the only.

The claim that Allah IS Yahweh is nonsense. Islam is a moon-god cult, AND even if Allah were Yahweh, since Yahweh is nonsense, so is Allah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8
The claim that it is an abrahamic religion stems from Mohammed's ancestors. Hagar was cast out along with her son Ishmael. Ishmael is his ancestor. Supposedly.

Under Repair.
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25-06-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: qu'ran vs science
Does your friend really expect you to use that site as proof? I explored perhaps 10 of the "miracles" described in the quran and each was as laughable of a connection as the last. Bones being frail in old age? Wow captain obvious I'm sure no one could have observed that before the quran explained it.
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