reasoned suicide?
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17-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
I don't like the publicity of it all. I don't like the fact that he wanted to shout it to the world. I don't like the fact that people who haven't carefully thought about it will be inspired by it.

Oh, and I don't believe that he was 100% mentally healthy. His need to "advertise" his life, to be important, the great (needless) effort he put in creating all this for nothing... Just read a bit and you will clearly see a person who is craving for attention, for someone to know about his life, and at times, he even sounds OCD-ish.

I don't know, he doesn't sound like a happy person. In the case he was unknowingly suffering from depression, he could possibly have made a big mistake.

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17-08-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 02:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I don't like the publicity of it all. I don't like the fact that he wanted to shout it to the world. I don't like the fact that people who haven't carefully thought about it will be inspired by it.

Oh, and I don't believe that he was 100% mentally healthy. His need to "advertise" his life, to be important, the great (needless) effort he put in creating all this for nothing... Just read a bit and you will clearly see a person who is craving for attention, for someone to know about his life, and at times, he even sounds OCD-ish.

I don't know, he doesn't sound like a happy person. In the case he was unknowingly suffering from depression, he could possibly have made a big mistake.

But isn't it his mistake to make?

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17-08-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 02:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Oh, and I don't believe that he was 100% mentally healthy.

I don't know, he doesn't sound like a happy person. In the case he was unknowingly suffering from depression, he could possibly have made a big mistake.

Nobody/Nothing is 100% anything. If that is the yard stick we are going to measure from, then nobody could be trusted to do anything without first sending it to a committee for a vote or a review panel for further study.

The only real freedom I must insist on is the right to make my own mistakes, otherwise any freedom I "have" is absolutely an illusion.

"I am a knowledgeable man, I have knowledge. If I knew how I knew what I know, I would know half as much, because it would be clogged up with where I knew it from...that is why I cannot always cite my sources. - David Mitchell
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17-08-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
However... having said that, I try not to use the word "freedom" or "rights" overmuch.

Some human rights are not always absolute, nor should they be.

Hypothetical:

I want to end my life.
I have fathered 2 children who are still minors and unable to provide for themselves.
I believe that because my children did not choose to be born to me, and because they could not provide for themselves, and any assets that I might leave behind could not reasonably be used to sustain them until adulthood, the state could make a case in court that I should be prevented from ending my life until they could take care of themselves.

So from 2000 to 2024 no matter what I feel about my life I think it could be reasonably argued that I should not be allowed to kill myself.

"I am a knowledgeable man, I have knowledge. If I knew how I knew what I know, I would know half as much, because it would be clogged up with where I knew it from...that is why I cannot always cite my sources. - David Mitchell
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17-08-2013, 04:59 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
I found this whole thing interesting for two reasons. One, it happened not too far from where I am. But also because just yesterday my boss's father passed away. He had a pretty good run, 97 years in all.

The problem with his death is exactly what you all are talking about, and what Martin Manley feared. For about the last five years he suffered from pretty severe dementia, causing quite a bit off stress and frustration for the family. About three weeks ago he suffered some sort of a stroke which left him unable to eat or take in any substantial amount of fluids. So for almost three weeks he slowly starved to death. I can only assume that what finally did him in was the severe dehydration.

From what I understand he wasn't in any pain to speak of, and he seemed to be aware of what was going on. The family was able to say their goodbyes which was nice, but it had to suck to have to just watch him slowly waste away.

I wonder about how much better it could have been for him to be able to make the decision before this. Before dementia took his mind and his dignity, before he ultimately suffered a slow cruel death in a home surrounded by others who are just waiting around for their time to die.

I sure don't want it to end like that.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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17-08-2013, 05:59 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 02:42 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I don't like the publicity of it all. I don't like the fact that he wanted to shout it to the world. I don't like the fact that people who haven't carefully thought about it will be inspired by it.

Oh, and I don't believe that he was 100% mentally healthy. His need to "advertise" his life, to be important, the great (needless) effort he put in creating all this for nothing... Just read a bit and you will clearly see a person who is craving for attention, for someone to know about his life, and at times, he even sounds OCD-ish.

I don't know, he doesn't sound like a happy person. In the case he was unknowingly suffering from depression, he could possibly have made a big mistake.

The guy was a sports reporter. And has written a bunch of books apparently. It was natural for him to write, he had done it all his life.

And, there should not be such a total taboo about this. It would be a lot better if, instead of never broaching the subject, society dealt with it and young people knew that emotions will pass and rich lives can be had after huge emotional blows, and what real reason to exit are.

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17-08-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 03:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  But isn't it his mistake to make?

(17-08-2013 04:28 PM)unsapien Wrote:  The only real freedom I must insist on is the right to make my own mistakes, otherwise any freedom I "have" is absolutely an illusion.

I'm not saying it was wrong for him to do it or that he shouldn't have done it. I'm simply saying that there is a chance he could have regretted it (if he really could, that is) in the case he was suicidal only because of a psychological problem. I'm simply saying it would be a shame.
Every mistake I make is my mistake to make. But it's still a mistake and it's still sad.

(17-08-2013 04:28 PM)unsapien Wrote:  Nobody/Nothing is 100% anything. If that is the yard stick we are going to measure from, then nobody could be trusted to do anything without first sending it to a committee for a vote or a review panel for further study.

I know, I just couldn't find the right word or phrase to say it in English (not my mother tongue) at that moment and it is more common to use it as a form of speech in my language. Perhaps it should have been something like "I don't believe he was very healthy mentally" or something. My mistake.

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17-08-2013, 06:13 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
What bothers me about Martin Manley is that he never explained why he chose to die. He claimed it was not related to money, depression, or poor health, but then why kill himself? If he was able to do things he enjoyed and be around people he loved, why suddenly stop his life? I understand his desire to control his own life, but the choice was so arbitrary. He died without reason beyond controlling his time of death. Ultimately it's his choice, but choices should have rational thinking behind them, not numbers pulled from a hat.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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17-08-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 06:07 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(17-08-2013 03:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  But isn't it his mistake to make?

(17-08-2013 04:28 PM)unsapien Wrote:  The only real freedom I must insist on is the right to make my own mistakes, otherwise any freedom I "have" is absolutely an illusion.

I'm not saying it was wrong for him to do it or that he shouldn't have done it. I'm simply saying that there is a chance he could have regretted it (if he really could, that is) in the case he was suicidal only because of a psychological problem. I'm simply saying it would be a shame.
Every mistake I make is my mistake to make. But it's still a mistake and it's still sad.

(17-08-2013 04:28 PM)unsapien Wrote:  Nobody/Nothing is 100% anything. If that is the yard stick we are going to measure from, then nobody could be trusted to do anything without first sending it to a committee for a vote or a review panel for further study.

I know, I just couldn't find the right word or phrase to say it in English (not my mother tongue) at that moment and it is more common to use it as a form of speech in my language. Perhaps it should have been something like "I don't believe he was very healthy mentally" or something. My mistake.

Perhaps this is the crux of the problem. Our species has spent the bulk of our time in small communities/villages/tribes of mostly our families and friends who would talk to us intimately, and daily about our troubles, and would then reciprocate with their own troubles. Even with the technology we have today the kinship would not the same, perhaps in looking for our personal freedoms we have not realized the strength we may have lost in communion ( meaning in the gathering together of social networks/relationships. Not in the Christian sense) for solving personal issues like our value in our own life and our value to our friends.

"I am a knowledgeable man, I have knowledge. If I knew how I knew what I know, I would know half as much, because it would be clogged up with where I knew it from...that is why I cannot always cite my sources. - David Mitchell
"If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." - Captain Picard
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17-08-2013, 06:40 PM
RE: reasoned suicide?
(17-08-2013 06:13 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  What bothers me about Martin Manley is that he never explained why he chose to die. He claimed it was not related to money, depression, or poor health, but then why kill himself? If he was able to do things he enjoyed and be around people he loved, why suddenly stop his life? I understand his desire to control his own life, but the choice was so arbitrary. He died without reason beyond controlling his time of death. Ultimately it's his choice, but choices should have rational thinking behind them, not numbers pulled from a hat.

From what I gathered, he was a pretty smart dude, loved the sciences. Seems he was rather fond of his mind and mentioned a couple of times that he had noticed it starting to decline. I think he just saw the writing on the wall and saw that, for him it was better to make an out while he was still ahead.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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