school shooting prayer?
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28-02-2012, 07:52 AM
school shooting prayer?
I was watching the school shooting thing today. There were 2 people in critical condition, and everyone on tv and on the internet comments, were praying for the people in critical condition. One of them died later. If the other worthless christian bully dies today, can we now say praying doesnt work. Is this finally the proof we need.
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28-02-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: school shooting prayer?
My mother told me back around 1970 that prayer did NOT work and she was a religious catholic. She was also an ICU specialist [over 20 years] and she saw with her own eyes how people reacted when they knew they were being prayed for; they gave it over to god and didn't recover has well has patients who kept a positive attitude and relied on medical science.
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28-02-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: school shooting prayer?
I think it can be used as an argument, but it's not likely to win over anyone who truly believes prayer works. They'll always argue that god is autonomous, so he doesn't have to agree to whatever it is you're praying for (despite Jesus in the Bible saying otherwise).

The thing that I still don't get is why people think prayer is supposed to work. God has a plan and is in control of all things - so obviously he wanted a school shooting to happen. And he wanted certain people to live or die. If he wants Person A to die, and you ask him to let Person A live, you are asking God to change his plan for you, which by most theists' own admission is the height of arrogance.

So why the hell are you praying?

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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28-02-2012, 10:58 AM
RE: school shooting prayer?
(28-02-2012 10:52 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  They'll always argue that god is autonomous, so he doesn't have to agree to whatever it is you're praying for (despite Jesus in the Bible saying otherwise).

Which verse are you referring to?

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28-02-2012, 11:32 AM
RE: school shooting prayer?
(28-02-2012 10:58 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-02-2012 10:52 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  They'll always argue that god is autonomous, so he doesn't have to agree to whatever it is you're praying for (despite Jesus in the Bible saying otherwise).

Which verse are you referring to?

Matthew 7:7-8 : 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

Matthew 17:20 "He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Matthew 21:21-22 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark 11:22-24 22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Personally, I'd say this is all pretty clear cut. Have faith in God, and he will give you what you ask for. There are more verses like these.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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28-02-2012, 12:16 PM
RE: school shooting prayer?
(28-02-2012 11:32 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  Personally, I'd say this is all pretty clear cut. Have faith in God, and he will give you what you ask for. There are more verses like these.

I get this argument a lot --- that prayer is always answered, but the answer isn't always "yes". Christians argue that it reduces God to a "galactic Santa Claus" or a "gumball machine"... and yet, that's how he's described in the bible, despite the attempts to paint the argument with negative-sounding semantics.

I wrote a blog once where I used Jesus as the perfect example of God not answering prayer. Jesus is the perfect example to give to a Christian, because any of the excuses they can give for his prayers not being answered (he lacks faith, sin is in the way, he doesn't know how to pray properly, etc.) will not apply to Jesus if you assume that he is infallible. And yet his prayer to "have this cup passed from him" (in other words, to not be crucified) went ignored. Christians use this as an example to prove that God says "no" to some prayers, and yet it's a better example of a biblical contradiction. Jesus was worthy of having his prayer answered "yes", and yet he got a "no" anyway.

Quote:Matthew 7:7-11
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

So the question is: why did God's son, when asking for bread, get a stone? It's because prayer doesn't work, even in the bible.

Feel free to argue with me about how he asked for "God's will to be done", or how God couldn't possibly give him what he requested... I'll happily shoot these objections down if raised.

The simplest answer is that prayer doesn't get answered, but Christians already know this... they pray for things that could happen by natural means (such as for the healing and recovery of a sick person) but they don't pray for supernatural things (such as the resurrection of a dead person). Christians ask for tawdry things that could be obtained without God, just so they can give God the credit. I recently got a new job, and my parents called it an "answer to prayer", so naturally I asked why they didn't pray for me to get a sudden windfall of millions of dollars. Why shoot so low if you've got the infinite power of the cosmos on your side? It's because they don't really believe in the power of prayer any more than we do.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-02-2012, 03:46 PM
RE: school shooting prayer?
Update: looks like 3 bullies dead now. 2 still alive. I will pray for their death too. see if praying works. lets go 5 for 5..... when they started praying it was 1 dead. since the praying it is now 3 dead. Ok, the evidence is in. praying doesnt work. any chance the world will stop praying.
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28-02-2012, 08:54 PM
RE: school shooting prayer?
(28-02-2012 07:52 AM)satan69 Wrote:  If the other worthless christian bully dies today, can we now say praying doesnt work. Is this finally the proof we need.

No. We will thank god that only 3 died and he saved the others.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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