*sigh* Another crappy argument
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05-10-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
Bear in mind to that when you courted and married your wife, you too were a theist. And for the first seven years of your child's life you too were raising him/her as a theist.

That's a lot of pre-configured theism there, so you can't expect immediate, early or even any changes in your wife's religious perspective. Your utmost concern (both of you) should be your child's state of mind and the fair expectation of a worldly upbringing unimpaired by you and/or your wife's religious beliefs, or practices or prejudices.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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05-10-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
Sorry you are going through this. I think at this point, I think it is completely fair to say to her that if she is unwilling to correct the lies being told to your children, you will. Maybe in time she may also see just how badly religious people lie for jebus.
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05-10-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Bear in mind to that when you courted and married your wife, you too were a theist. And for the first seven years of your child's life you too were raising him/her as a theist.

The first part is correct, the second, not so much. Although when we were married, I still believed in god, and I tried the christianity thing again for a while after we were married but I stopped going to church one or 2 years before we had kids (we were married almost 4 years before we decided have any). I am sure she feels betrayed because when we did talk about it before and after we married, I said I would support her in what she wanted to do. However, as the faith eroded, I had to tell her that I would not interfere, but I could not in good conscience support her and if they asked me something, I wasn't going to lie to them. I was a deist at this time BTW. I have honored this as best I can. I don't forbid them going to church but obviously, there have been questions that both of us have had to answer. Luckily, my oldest is pretty sharp. My kids have known their whole lives that not everyone is christian and I like that although I am probably the only one who does.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-10-2016, 02:19 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 10:25 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Maybe in time she may also see just how badly religious people lie for jebus.

I have pointed this out before. The church has a gym and they have verses all over the place. Outside by the entrance, it reads half of 1 Corinthians 9:22 "...that by all means, some may be saved." I asked her whether she thought that this also included lying for jesus since you can be forgiven for anything.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-10-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 02:10 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Bear in mind to that when you courted and married your wife, you too were a theist. And for the first seven years of your child's life you too were raising him/her as a theist.

The first part is correct, the second, not so much. Although when we were married, I still believed in god, and I tried the christianity thing again for a while after we were married but I stopped going to church one or 2 years before we had kids (we were married almost 4 years before we decided have any). I am sure she feels betrayed because when we did talk about it before and after we married, I said I would support her in what she wanted to do. However, as the faith eroded, I had to tell her that I would not interfere, but I could not in good conscience support her and if they asked me something, I wasn't going to lie to them. I was a deist at this time BTW. I have honored this as best I can. I don't forbid them going to church but obviously, there have been questions that both of us have had to answer. Luckily, my oldest is pretty sharp. My kids have known their whole lives that not everyone is christian and I like that although I am probably the only one who does.

I could see another future conflict, if your kids tell their mom that they don't want to go to church anymore, do you agree with that or let your wife force them to go?

Not a fun situation to be in. No

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-10-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 02:19 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 10:25 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Maybe in time she may also see just how badly religious people lie for jebus.

I have pointed this out before. The church has a gym and they have verses all over the place. Outside by the entrance, it reads half of 1 Corinthians 9:22 "...that by all means, some may be saved." I asked her whether she thought that this also included lying for jesus since you can be forgiven for anything.

Sorry you're going through all this; and the answer from some people would be yes. I've had people I thought were very rational, erudite, and intellectually honest about their faith (and occasional struggles with it) tell me that "flirt to convert" is perfectly okay, even if a person isn't really interested in the person they're flirting with, as long as it brings a soul to God. And as someone with a Baptist minister who married into the family; a-freaking-men to you pointing out not all Bible colleges are like the Harvard Divinity School; the one in my family can't even discuss the history of Christianity before the Great Awakening in America, because his seminary didn't cover it.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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05-10-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 09:44 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I highly doubt it for a few reasons.

A shame. Something less frothing would be healthier for all involved.

Quote:The strange thing about this last tiff is that I was the one being critical of them for teaching things not in the bible.

I know, it's a pain being an atheist who knows their scriptures better than they do. The damned ark didn't even come down on Mt. Ararat in the Bible yet people keep searching there.

Quote:The problem is that I really have no respect for any church

You may need to bite your tongue more then. It sounds like a lot of her identity is wrapped up in that church so running it down won't be useful no matter how accurate it is.

Quote:I just had to stop because of the crap that he was saying (like that masturbation was basically death creeping into your life because it was a sin and the wages of sin is death).

Weeping

Quote:Oh her beliefs aren't deep at all. I don't even think she would dispute that. Our minds work differently.

That could be tricky. Is there something that both of you really find amazing that you can show her why it works and why that makes it more amazing for you? She might not feel the same way but it might help her understand why you need to understand what goes on underneath the hood.

Quote:I try to remember that. I tend to go on tangents and so does she.

It's emotionally charged. Bound to happen.

Quote:Part of it is that I really don't think she is actually interested in a discussion if it is someone who doesn't agree with the conclusion.

That isn't much of a discussion. Your best bet may be to avoid it if possible. Neither of you sounds like you're likely to budge so the only outcome will be hurt feelings.

Quote:And it isn't easy, I can assure you of that.

I can only imagine. And prefer not to.

Quote:My oldest (9) already has told me that he doesn't buy it at all and has repeatedly asked when he can stop going.

Somebody's getting dinosaur books for Christmas. Thumbsup

Quote:My 6 YO said that he believes in god but doesn't like the Jesus stuff.

Laughat There are few things you can do that are more horrible than unleashing a 6 year-old on an unwitting preacher.

Quote:Interestingly, if they were parroting me, shouldn't they be saying the same thing?

You could make the argument that they're each aping a different aspect but that seems unlikely. Neither has a developped worldview so any attempt at mimicking you should be painfully transparent. They both sound pretty typical for their age.

Quote:My other kid is 4 so half the time, he is in his own little world.

At 4 years, god is a free lollipop.

Quote:I also told my 9 YO that he should keep it to himself unless it comes up.

Excellent advice regardless of what you do or don't believe. I expect that this will be the next bump in the road for you and your wife. She will not be happy when your kids don't turn out to be good little Christians.

Best of luck. I don't know how you do it.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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06-10-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 02:49 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I could see another future conflict, if your kids tell their mom that they don't want to go to church anymore, do you agree with that or let your wife force them to go?

Not a fun situation to be in. No

The only question is when the next thing is going to happen. It isn't a matter of if. I really don't want to argue with her about this but it is rather unavoidable if it is something the kids are involved with. She says stuff that happens in her bible studies and whatever and on occasion we have talked about it and they were great discussions or I just listen and bite my tongue. Ironically, she will ask me about theology questions from time to time or about another faith to see what I know about it (in a totally non-prying way, just for discussion).

In terms of the kids, it's complicated. My 9 YO has said a while ago he doesn't want to go anymore but she just says that he just wants to stay home and be lazy. I tend not to get involved between them because I have told my son that if he wants to stop going, he needs to explain why to demonstrate that he has though about it. I have told him and my wife both that I will only enter the ring if he has a well thought out reason and she doesn't respect his wishes. She has told him that he must go until he is 12 (or unless he can come up with his own argument earlier). I also told her that if 12 is her requirement, than none of our kids can be baptized before that if they ask for it since 12 is her magic number. I promised I wouldn't interfere and I intend to keep that promise until she refuses to respect their wishes.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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06-10-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
(05-10-2016 05:07 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I expect that this will be the next bump in the road for you and your wife. She will not be happy when your kids don't turn out to be good little Christians.

This actually terrifies me. I feel that every time she is reminded I don't buy it or I make a point, it is a knife in her. I don't know if that is true but that is just how I feel about it. I get no pleasure from this at all.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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06-10-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: *sigh* Another crappy argument
Hi OC *hugs*

This has got to be so hard on both of you--so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I think the best thing to do is to arm your kids with the ability to think for themselves. To question and to learn about and embrace philosophy, science, anthropology (learning that there are other cultures out there with other gods), archaeology--everything that allows someone to pause for thought when being fed various mythology.

There are a few books for kids that I've come across that your wife *may* be okay with. They are specifically for kids and allows them the ability to question at a young age/plants seeds of reason in a way a kid can understand. Imo, The Book of Gods and The Belief Book by David G. McAfee and Chuck Harrison are really great tools for cultivating young independent thinkers.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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