something that drives me crazy about theists
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-05-2017, 01:24 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(08-05-2017 08:08 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 06:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No main christian denomination holds that when shit goes wrong it's your fault.
It's fine that you disagree with this, and/or don't think the Bible teaches it. But I can testify from personal experience that in my denomination, there was a VERY heavy and obvious vibe that it was "all your fault somehow". People quickly got impatient with personal suffering (just as they do outside the church, to be fair; no one wants to hear about it beyond a pretty limited certain point). The difference within the church, in my experience, is rather than just backing away or spouting empty platitudes, they tended to play blame games. There was talk of secret sin, insufficient faith, "asking amiss" and the like. Sometimes obliquely, sometimes not so much.

Now your qualification that no "main denomination" holds this may be somewhat true, officially at least. But my little quasi-denomination (IFCA) taught very explicitly that god answers the prayers of the righteous, and they taught imprecatory and intercessory prayer as well as meditative prayer. The whole point of the former is to get your needs met. And they very much taught that god cares, watches over us, etc., so when he doesn't watch over us, it's to test us, punish us, etc.

So equivocate all you want, it's rampant in fundamentalism especially, and not unknown elsewhere in Christian precincts. Of course, it looks dickish to openly teach that (because it is), and so there are various semi-deniable circumlocutions; this stuff is not so much taught as it's insinuated. As one pastor I sat under admitted, "The church is the only army that shoots its own wounded".

They all do as far as I've seen. They just lie and refuse to admit it.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 05:39 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
Theists don't really believe. They're just angry at reality. Tongue

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Old Man Marsh's post
09-05-2017, 06:12 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(08-05-2017 12:30 PM)kevin308 Wrote:  I have something that absouluetly drives me crazy about theists. It is that god never gets any blame when things go wrong. It's always the theists fault and god never gets judged or held accountable. What kind of fucked up relationship is it when you get all the blame? That's one of many reasons I could never be a theist again. How many of us can relate to being in a relationship where they are made to blame for EVERYTHING that goes wrong (I know I can). In response to this, the healthy thing to do is to end the relationship. But theists continue to blame and shame themselves for everything that goes wrong in their life and wind up trying harder to get gods attention (just like a person tries to get their partners love when they are in a one sided relationship). Theists have little self esteem because they are so afraid of disappointing god. My sister said she sins every day. I begged to differ with her; I don't believe I sin every dayTongue, and I don't need to be forgiven by some deity. To further illustrate my point, all you have to do is watch any sporting event. When the person does good, they point to the sky, One time I would like to see someone flip god off when they perform badly, and as yet that hasn't happened. I find god guily of being a prickBig Grin

It's done to be consistent with their doctrine. God is all good. He is incapable of doing anything evil or wrong. So blaming him is out of the question. But as is so often the case for Christianity, when one problem is avoided, it is done so only by creating more problems. If God is incapable of doing something, then he isn't omnipotent. They're then forced to redefine omnipotence to being able to do all that is consistent with your nature. But then this definition includes everything in the universe so no luck there. At this point, they're so far entrenched into the nonsense that they drop Christianity or if they're really devoted to the whole thing, they become a presupper. Main takeaway: let's just blame God for all of our problems and call it a day. Thumbsup

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Naielis's post
09-05-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(09-05-2017 12:03 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  If a theist argues for Divine Command Theory, that theist is admitting God is not moral or good. It's that simple, that stark. But no theist ever wants to argue why God is in the end, amoral.

Christians maintain that their God is worthy of worship, so of course they can't admit he is immoral, even though we know too much about the real world to say otherwise about any assumed Creator.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 07:00 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(08-05-2017 01:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 12:30 PM)kevin308 Wrote:  I have something that absouluetly drives me crazy about theists. It is that god never gets any blame when things go wrong. It's always the theists fault and god never gets judged or held accountable. What kind of fucked up relationship is it when you get all the blame?

I'm not sure which theists you have in mind here, because that wouldn't be a Judea-Christian belief, as was a part of the point expressed in Job. That bad things don't necessarily fall upon you because you did something wrong. As well as in the NT writings, were an unfortunate life laid ahead of those who choose to follow Jesus.

While you may be correct to say that theists don't personally blame God for the wrong that befalls them, but Christianity doesn't claim that whatever misfortune that falls upon you is your fault either. Christianity doesn't preach that a rose garden awaits the observant believer.

But that's the thing, isn't it? You can point out that an idea isn't supported in the text or tenets, but others will find one of many vague references and, along with their personal relationship with god, say that their interpretation is the correct one. Neither can be proved wrong. We're just left to wonder how so many people with these relationships with god can have so many interpretations of the same idea. We're pretty sure we know the reason, tho.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like kemo boy's post
09-05-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(09-05-2017 07:00 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  But that's the thing, isn't it? You can point out that an idea isn't supported in the text or tenets, but others will find one of many vague references and, along with their personal relationship with god, say that their interpretation is the correct one. Neither can be proved wrong. We're just left to wonder how so many people with these relationships with god can have so many interpretations of the same idea. We're pretty sure we know the reason, tho.

No, you can prove them wrong, the same way we prove people wrong when they quote mine any other texts. The same way you can prove someone wrong who claims that the Origin of Species advocates genocide. Some passages may leave room for more than one reasonable interpretation, some leave little to no room for other interpretations, which can be easily disproven by the text in question.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(08-05-2017 06:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:I disagree. People praise god all the time for shit that god had nothing to do with. Yet, when shit goes wrong...it's your fault because you didn't pray hard enough or attend the right church or give enough to said church.

No main christian denomination holds that when shit goes wrong it's your fault. Because it pretty clear in the NT writings that this is not the case, I mean the central hero of Christianity, is a man for whom shit did go wrong, dying a brutal and humiliating death at the hands of the Romans. And whose early followers, leaders of it's early movement met grisly and tragic fates of their own.

It's pretty explicit that believers are not spared "shit going wrong" in this life, in fact it's almost guaranteed to go wrong for the believer.

Other religions may have a different outlook, but Christianity on the other hands leaves very little room for such a view.

Complete bullshit. I've sat through several sermons that explicitly talked about your actions leading to bad things happening to you, and I don't mean things like you smoke you get cancer or you drink and drive and you end up paralyzed. I mean sermons that point out people who were "living in sin" were punished for not obeying God.

And the NT has plenty of examples of bad shit happening to people because they explicitly didn't do what God wanted. For example, Ananias and Sapphira were immediately killed by God for lying about how much money they were giving.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ResidentEvilFan's post
09-05-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(09-05-2017 08:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 07:00 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  But that's the thing, isn't it? You can point out that an idea isn't supported in the text or tenets, but others will find one of many vague references and, along with their personal relationship with god, say that their interpretation is the correct one. Neither can be proved wrong. We're just left to wonder how so many people with these relationships with god can have so many interpretations of the same idea. We're pretty sure we know the reason, tho.

No, you can prove them wrong, the same way we prove people wrong when they quote mine any other texts. The same way you can prove someone wrong who claims that the Origin of Species advocates genocide. Some passages may leave room for more than one reasonable interpretation, some leave little to no room for other interpretations, which can be easily disproven by the text in question.

Actually no...you cannot "prove them wrong" because you are merely reading an interpretation that has gone through many, many revisions and has unknown origins and therefore you don't even really know the originals even may or may not have said. All you can do is give your own understanding of what you are reading, or what you've been taught about them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ResidentEvilFan's post
09-05-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(08-05-2017 12:30 PM)kevin308 Wrote:  I have something that absouluetly drives me crazy about theists. It is that god never gets any blame when things go wrong. It's always the theists fault and god never gets judged or held accountable. What kind of fucked up relationship is it when you get all the blame? That's one of many reasons I could never be a theist again. How many of us can relate to being in a relationship where they are made to blame for EVERYTHING that goes wrong (I know I can). In response to this, the healthy thing to do is to end the relationship. But theists continue to blame and shame themselves for everything that goes wrong in their life and wind up trying harder to get gods attention (just like a person tries to get their partners love when they are in a one sided relationship). Theists have little self esteem because they are so afraid of disappointing god. My sister said she sins every day. I begged to differ with her; I don't believe I sin every dayTongue, and I don't need to be forgiven by some deity. To further illustrate my point, all you have to do is watch any sporting event. When the person does good, they point to the sky, One time I would like to see someone flip god off when they perform badly, and as yet that hasn't happened. I find god guily of being a prickBig Grin

god sounds like a good liberal american ... blame anybody else, blame anything else, but the one that is truly responsible.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-05-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: something that drives me crazy about theists
(09-05-2017 09:43 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Actually no...you cannot "prove them wrong" because you are merely reading an interpretation that has gone through many, many revisions and has unknown origins and therefore you don't even really know the originals even may or may not have said. All you can do is give your own understanding of what you are reading, or what you've been taught about them.

Well, you can't offer an interpretation of a non-existent texts. Or the many revisions, etc... that don't exist. All interpretations are based on the available text, and what can be said about them. And just like interpretations of any other written source, passage, writings, can be reasonable, unreasonable, and easily disprovable interpretations.

If you can prove creationist "quote mined" Darwin, that their interpretations of a particular passage of his writings are wrong, then you can do so with other texts as well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: