[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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03-10-2015, 05:46 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Source: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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03-10-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Guns should not be in every classroom; they should be only accessible to staff who are trained in their use.

In American high schools, there are usually vice principals (and teachers) who are also sports coaches. Some of them are pretty physically imposing and are not likely to have their guns taken.

The coaches at my high school might have been physically imposing, but they weren't the best of character in every case.

If we want security in our schools, they need to be security and not a teacher playing rent-a-cop. A cop isn't qualified to teach. And a teacher isn't qualified to be a cop.

You might just have a point there. Consider

We had one vice principal who was previously a science teacher, but he was the ice hockey coach. He had been an All-American defenseman at Boston University.
I would trust his judgement.

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03-10-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The coaches at my high school might have been physically imposing, but they weren't the best of character in every case.

If we want security in our schools, they need to be security and not a teacher playing rent-a-cop. A cop isn't qualified to teach. And a teacher isn't qualified to be a cop.

You might just have a point there. Consider

We had one vice principal who was previously a science teacher, but he was the ice hockey coach. He had been an All-American defenseman at Boston University.
I would trust his judgement.

I'd trust the judgement of some of my teachers, but certainly not all of them (I can think of a handful off of the top of my head who were nice people and decent teachers, except one, but are the exact opposite of the type of person I'd want to stake my or my child's safety on)

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03-10-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
There is some teachers I would trust to have guns, and those who would want them would probably be a bunch of trustworthy reason to think they know about gun safety. If this is an option motive, how many would even want to equip themselves in this manner though. Also in some schools or areas, what is the message and response of students going to be when they have a teacher with a firearm. Especially in areas where students outside of schools themselves my have firearms.

I think with a lot of adjustment in these types of school atmosphere scenarios, you really have to consider the impact on the community and people around. Not merely in the terms of safety but what perceptions and attitudes will form because of this situation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-10-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:50 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  You might just have a point there. Consider

We had one vice principal who was previously a science teacher, but he was the ice hockey coach. He had been an All-American defenseman at Boston University.
I would trust his judgement.

I'd trust the judgement of some of my teachers, but certainly not all of them (I can think of a handful off of the top of my head who were nice people and decent teachers, except one, but are the exact opposite of the type of person I'd want to stake my or my child's safety on)

And to skewer myself here a bit too, I'm the last person I'd want with a gun in the labs on UConn's campus to protect the students. I know exactly how I'd react to an active shooter, and it wouldn't be a calm and cool manner where I would be collected and poised well enough to be of any real use.

I have had to think about what I would do though, and I have had to make plans in my head for how I would bar the doors and move students into cover in each classroom I teach in. The fact that I have to think about that, is disturbing to me.

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03-10-2015, 05:53 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  The manner in which you initially presented your opposition to short-term measures did sound like opposing their implementation at all. Consider

That, of course, leaves a gap in time between now and long-term solutions.

No, it didn't. Being critical of something, is not the same as being diametrically opposed to it.

I didn't say it was your position, just that the way you put it could be interpreted that way. And it was by some.

Quote:But let's say I grant you the assumption that it sounded as though I was opposed the implementation of these security measures. In any way shape or form, would that warrant the assumption I would be okay with kids being shot?

"I assume you are okay with kids getting shot till that control happens cause metal detectors won't help at all?"

I saw it as a pointed question to call your attention to the gap in time that continued to leave children vulnerable.
Yes, it was offensive, but that was surely a rhetorical device.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-10-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  No, it didn't. Being critical of something, is not the same as being diametrically opposed to it.

I didn't say it was your position, just that the way you put it could be interpreted that way. And it was by some.

Quote:But let's say I grant you the assumption that it sounded as though I was opposed the implementation of these security measures. In any way shape or form, would that warrant the assumption I would be okay with kids being shot?

"I assume you are okay with kids getting shot till that control happens cause metal detectors won't help at all?"

I saw it as a pointed question to call your attention to the gap in time.
Yes, it was offensive, but that was surely a rhetorical device.

It wasn't a rhetorical device, it was an assumption based on a straw manned version of what I said that was intended to be offensive.

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03-10-2015, 05:56 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:33 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  No, it didn't. Being critical of something, is not the same as being diametrically opposed to it.

I didn't say it was your position, just that the way you put it could be interpreted that way. And it was by some.

Quote:But let's say I grant you the assumption that it sounded as though I was opposed the implementation of these security measures. In any way shape or form, would that warrant the assumption I would be okay with kids being shot?

"I assume you are okay with kids getting shot till that control happens cause metal detectors won't help at all?"

I saw it as a pointed question to call your attention to the gap in time that continued to leave children vulnerable.
Yes, it was offensive, but that was surely a rhetorical device.

It was wholly unnecessary. Entirely offensive. Utterly asinine. And the worst part is the inability to admit any of that and the doubling down on the offensives of it by belittling the taking of offense. A downright shameful action and a shitty thing for anyone to do.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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03-10-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  The state laws don't matter for that - it is a federal law and is true for every person in every state.


It is already illegal to transfer a firearm illegally. What law can be added to make more illegal?

"The state laws don't matter for that - it is a federal law and is true for every person in every state."

It is clear that when there are states with lax laws on guns, it undermines the states with more stringent gun laws and regulations and licensing requirements.

That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve.

Quote:For instance, as Chicago has an insane amount of gun violence and stringent gun laws, one might assume this means those laws don't work. A closer inspection reveals that because it is so easy for these laws to be skirted because the guns can simply be brought into Chicago, more lax laws in the areas surrounding it, are what make Chicago's laws ineffective.

That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals.

Quote:If we want better control and regulation of guns and gun owners, it can't be a piece-meal solution where states differ appreciably in their stringency.
[/question]

Our patchwork of laws is confusing and sometimes makes criminals out of honest people.
One approach would be for the federal government to set a minimum standard for states' firearms legislation, such as requiring a firearms permit obtainable only with safety training. That permit would have to be recognized by every state.

[question]
It is already illegal to transfer a firearm illegally. What law can be added to make more illegal?"

Not make "more illegal" but prevent legal guns from making it illegally into other people's hands.

There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-10-2015, 06:05 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  I didn't say it was your position, just that the way you put it could be interpreted that way. And it was by some.


I saw it as a pointed question to call your attention to the gap in time that continued to leave children vulnerable.
Yes, it was offensive, but that was surely a rhetorical device.

It was wholly unnecessary. Entirely offensive. Utterly asinine. And the worst part is the inability to admit any of that and the doubling down on the offensives of it by belittling the taking of offense. A downright shameful action and a shitty thing for anyone to do.

Or to put it another way, I'd expect those types of questions from theists straw manning atheists on morality or by trolls being trolls. But anyone else should be self-aware enough to know it was a shitty thing to imply and recognize the need to not do it and to apologize for such shitty things. It is an unfortunate reality that not only was the self-awareness lacking, so was the responsibility of owning up to and the admission of being an asshole. Drinking Beverage But hey, who am I if not someone who's morality is apparently questionable enough to ask if I'd be okay with kids being shot?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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