[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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03-10-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "The state laws don't matter for that - it is a federal law and is true for every person in every state."

It is clear that when there are states with lax laws on guns, it undermines the states with more stringent gun laws and regulations and licensing requirements.

That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve.

Quote:For instance, as Chicago has an insane amount of gun violence and stringent gun laws, one might assume this means those laws don't work. A closer inspection reveals that because it is so easy for these laws to be skirted because the guns can simply be brought into Chicago, more lax laws in the areas surrounding it, are what make Chicago's laws ineffective.

That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals.

Quote:If we want better control and regulation of guns and gun owners, it can't be a piece-meal solution where states differ appreciably in their stringency.
[/question]

Our patchwork of laws is confusing and sometimes makes criminals out of honest people.
One approach would be for the federal government to set a minimum standard for states' firearms legislation, such as requiring a firearms permit obtainable only with safety training. That permit would have to be recognized by every state.

[question]
It is already illegal to transfer a firearm illegally. What law can be added to make more illegal?"

Not make "more illegal" but prevent legal guns from making it illegally into other people's hands.

There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?

"That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve."


I'm talking about laws, regulations, and licensing requirements wholesale. Not a specific law.

"That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals."

Precisely why it doesn't matter if any one state or city has good laws if the laws become null and void outside of their boundaries such that they can be easily avoided.

"Our patchwork of laws is confusing and sometimes makes criminals out of honest people.
One approach would be for the federal government to set a minimum standard for states' firearms legislation, such as requiring a firearms permit obtainable only with safety training. That permit would have to be recognized by every state."


Yes, homogeneity would be the goal here.

"There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?"


We live in a society that by definition, governs itself with laws. Yes, criminals will still exist but that cannot be a reason to not implement better, more homogenous, and effective laws.

Regulating (nationwide) who can own guns and how they can attain them and how often they should be required to demonstrate that they are still sufficiently qualified to possess and use a gun. I'd be happier if the laws and regulations up there in Massachusetts were nationwide requirements.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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03-10-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 06:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It was wholly unnecessary. Entirely offensive. Utterly asinine. And the worst part is the inability to admit any of that and the doubling down on the offensives of it by belittling the taking of offense. A downright shameful action and a shitty thing for anyone to do.

Or to put it another way, I'd expect those types of questions from theists straw manning atheists on morality or by trolls being trolls. But anyone else should be self-aware enough to know it was a shitty thing to imply and recognize the need to not do it and to apologize for such shitty things. It is an unfortunate reality that not only was the self-awareness lacking, so was the responsibility of owning up to and the admission of being an asshole. Drinking Beverage But hey, who am I if not someone who's morality is apparently questionable enough to ask if I'd be okay with kids being shot?

Are you done ranting?

I said, more than once, that I was looking for clarity in your statements. You don't accept that, nor will you give a straight answer.

Call me names, I don't care. That doesn't reflect on me.

Your refusal to answer a question says much more. So does your reading of a question as a statement.

You were pretty clear that metal detectors were a waste of time and money. I wanted to know what we should do until better controls are in place, if ever. Do nothing? I sort of figure that some measure of protection is far better than none.

I wanted to know if that is what you meant.

Now, pick this apart word by word and take every syllable as a personal assault on your character.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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03-10-2015, 06:18 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 06:17 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 06:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Or to put it another way, I'd expect those types of questions from theists straw manning atheists on morality or by trolls being trolls. But anyone else should be self-aware enough to know it was a shitty thing to imply and recognize the need to not do it and to apologize for such shitty things. It is an unfortunate reality that not only was the self-awareness lacking, so was the responsibility of owning up to and the admission of being an asshole. Drinking Beverage But hey, who am I if not someone who's morality is apparently questionable enough to ask if I'd be okay with kids being shot?

Are you done ranting?

I said, more than once, that I was looking for clarity in your statements. You don't accept that, nor will you give a straight answer.

Call me names, I don't care. That doesn't reflect on me.

Your refusal to answer a question says much more. So does your reading of a question as a statement.

You were pretty clear that metal detectors were a waste of time and money. I wanted to know what we should do until better controls are in place, if ever. Do nothing? I sort of figure that some measure of protection is far better than none.

I wanted to know if that is what you meant.

Now, pick this apart word by word and take every syllable as a personal assault on your character.

I don't have to pick it apart. It's clear how you feel and it's clear you're an asshole.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 06:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve.


That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals.


There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?

"That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve."


I'm talking about laws, regulations, and licensing requirements wholesale. Not a specific law.

"That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals."

Precisely why it doesn't matter if any one state or city has good laws if the laws become null and void outside of their boundaries such that they can be easily avoided.

"Our patchwork of laws is confusing and sometimes makes criminals out of honest people.
One approach would be for the federal government to set a minimum standard for states' firearms legislation, such as requiring a firearms permit obtainable only with safety training. That permit would have to be recognized by every state."


Yes, homogeneity would be the goal here.

"There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?"


We live in a society that by definition, governs itself with laws. Yes, criminals will still exist but that cannot be a reason to not implement better, more homogenous, and effective laws.

Regulating (nationwide) who can own guns and how they can attain them and how often they should be required to demonstrate that they are still sufficiently qualified to possess and use a gun. I'd be happier if the laws and regulations up there in Massachusetts were nationwide requirements.

The restrictions in MA are mostly reasonable and add to public safety, but there are some ridiculous exceptions.

MA still maintains the entirely ineffective "assault weapons ban", and also requires handgun manufactures to submit 4 guns of any model they want to sell in MA for destructive testing for safety, and even minor variations can trigger this requirement.

There is explicit law that makes it impossible to openly transport a rifle or shotgun, but no explicit law for handgun - concealed carry is ok, but open carry is not addressed, leaving it a gray area.
There are a couple of others I can't think of at the moment.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-10-2015, 06:19 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 06:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 06:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "That's not true for this law. I cannot buy a handgun in Vermont, even with their lax regulations, nor can the Vermonter buy one here in Massachusetts.
This law is expressly directed at the problem you want to solve."


I'm talking about laws, regulations, and licensing requirements wholesale. Not a specific law.

"That's a difference between Illinois law and the City of Chicago law. Unless they strictly enforce it (checkpoints?), it will be flouted by criminals."

Precisely why it doesn't matter if any one state or city has good laws if the laws become null and void outside of their boundaries such that they can be easily avoided.

"Our patchwork of laws is confusing and sometimes makes criminals out of honest people.
One approach would be for the federal government to set a minimum standard for states' firearms legislation, such as requiring a firearms permit obtainable only with safety training. That permit would have to be recognized by every state."


Yes, homogeneity would be the goal here.

"There are no more regulations needed that can't also be ignored by criminals.

Do you have something besides more laws?"


We live in a society that by definition, governs itself with laws. Yes, criminals will still exist but that cannot be a reason to not implement better, more homogenous, and effective laws.

Regulating (nationwide) who can own guns and how they can attain them and how often they should be required to demonstrate that they are still sufficiently qualified to possess and use a gun. I'd be happier if the laws and regulations up there in Massachusetts were nationwide requirements.

The restrictions in MA are mostly reasonable and add to public safety, but there are some ridiculous exceptions.

MA still maintains the entirely ineffective "assault weapons ban", and also requires handgun manufactures to submit 4 guns of any model they want to sell in MA for destructive testing for safety, and even minor variations can trigger this requirement.

There is explicit law that makes it impossible to openly transport a rifle or shotgun, but no explicit law for handgun - concealed carry is ok, but open carry is not addressed, leaving it a gray area.
There are a couple of others I can't think of at the moment.

That's why I said happier and not fully satisfied. But it would be a decent start.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 06:42 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
A good rebuttal to the "cars and alcohol kill people too" non-argument.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...er-weapon/

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 06:53 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The coaches at my high school might have been physically imposing, but they weren't the best of character in every case.

If we want security in our schools, they need to be security and not a teacher playing rent-a-cop. A cop isn't qualified to teach. And a teacher isn't qualified to be a cop.

You might just have a point there. Consider

We had one vice principal who was previously a science teacher, but he was the ice hockey coach. He had been an All-American defenseman at Boston University.
I would trust his judgement.

We had a teacher when I was in HS who once played for the green bay packers, he wore his Super Bowl ring proudly. Smile

But...I wouldn't trust him to police our hallways...dude was crazy from the korean war and spent time as a pow or something.

No just no....


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-10-2015, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 08:18 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 03:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Didn't read this whole thread, but am I the only one who thinks forcing teachers to remain unarmed is a crime against humanity?

That would not turn out well at my or OurLord'sHelmet alma maters. Those guns would be taken away and turned on the teachers lickety-split. They wouldn't have been killed. More like "What the fuck you thinking bringing a gun to school, fool?"

#sigh
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03-10-2015, 07:04 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A cop isn't qualified to teach. And a teacher isn't qualified to be a cop.

You're only showing your ignorance here. Anyone without a mental handicap can learn to use, and learn how to protect themselves, with a firearm. We don't need to train teachers how to be cops, they would only need very basic training in handling a firearm. What is an unarmed teacher to do when he hears gun shots down the hall? Wait in his room and throw a pencil at the shooter and hope to hit him in the eye? We know with certainty that there will be more school shootings. Taking away the option of a gun for protection is a crime. When the bad guy shows up with a gun, you need someone with a gun to take him out. If no one has a gun, no one can take him out. The fewer people with guns, the fewer people that can take him out. Gun-free zones make people sitting ducks. Remember, I'm not suggesting that we require any teacher to carry a gun, I'm only suggesting that we don't take away the option.
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03-10-2015, 07:09 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 07:04 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 05:28 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A cop isn't qualified to teach. And a teacher isn't qualified to be a cop.

You're only showing your ignorance here. Anyone without a mental handicap can learn to use, and learn how to protect themselves, with a firearm. We don't need to train teachers how to be cops, they would only need very basic training in handling a firearm. What is an unarmed teacher to do when he hears gun shots down the hall? Wait in his room and throw a pencil at the shooter and hope to hit him in the eye? We know with certainty that there will be more school shootings. Taking away the option of a gun for protection is a crime. When the bad guy shows up with a gun, you need someone with a gun to take him out. If no one has a gun, no one can take him out. The fewer people with guns, the fewer people that can take him out. Gun-free zones make people sitting ducks. Remember, I'm not suggesting that we require any teacher to carry a gun, I'm only suggesting that we don't take away the option.

Your suggestion puts guns in classrooms with kids. Given the lax requirements for who can own and operate guns, remember that it is Joe Blow and Danny the Dumbass that will bring them into their history class with them.

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