[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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03-10-2015, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 10:10 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 04:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 04:00 PM)Anjele Wrote:  It's a form of protection till a fix is found and implemented.

It is a band-aid that avoids the issue.

Not necessarily. One may provide both immediate aid at the same time you're transporting the patient to the hospital. Indeed, it's the sensible thing to do.

Don't let the perfect solution thwart a good interim stopgap. The two can and should work together.

For the record, at one time I favored arming teachers, but came to think that it is a bad idea for the reasons you've mentioned.
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03-10-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
And some of us "hippies" grew up in a strong gun culture too and also went hunting and shot guns out on the farm at clay pigeons. The facts lead some of us away from the illogical views of seeing guns as anything other than machines designed to kill, and that are all to often used to do so.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:26 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  Yak,

If only it was about protection from Moose and Bears, however I think you know it goes quite a bit deeper. By simply ignoring the evidence and data that show that you are statistically much safer not having guns in the house falls into another one of those faith based beliefs systems. By the way Alaska is the state with the least restrictions on guns and what do you know it has the highest per capita gun related deaths:

Here are some more facts to ignore:

https://img.njdc.com/media/media/2015/09...echart.png

I'm off to bed as you all can see by my Hippie posts I don't have any strong opinions on this matter.

Peace, Love, Evidence

Out

I'm not saying it's about moose and bears now. I'm saying that was the environment in which I became as used to firearms as you are to your shoes, and the fact that I am used to them causes me to lean towards a different outlook on a situation before the conversation even begins.

The rest of the data I'm not even gonna get into. I'm tired of hashing out the same conversations over and over again. I'm not gonna spent a half hour picking apart the weaknesses of that chart because I know it's not going to change anyone's mind here. I maintain the opinion that there is no absolute right or wrong answer and that all proposed solutions have both pros and cons, and in my case I've decided I wish to remain as armed as I can possibly be at any given time and will do everything in my power to maintain that right.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:37 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 04:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It is a band-aid that avoids the issue.

Not necessarily. One may provide both immediate aid at the same time you're transporting the patient to the hospital. Indeed, it's the sensible thing to do.

Don't let the perfect solution thwarts a good interim stopgap. The two can and should work together.

For the record, at one time I favored arming teachers, but came to think that it is a bad IDE for the reasons you've mentioned.

Like I said, it is saddening that it even comes to discussions about increasing security in schools. But if it is necessary to do in the short term in order to attain a long term solution, then so be it.

But I would fear that it would become justified as an actual solution by our politicians, and that any long term solution would become derailed under the guise that a solution was already in place.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
"I'm not gonna spent a half hour picking apart the weaknesses of that chart because I know it's not going to change anyone's mind here."

This is always mind boggling to me on a forum of atheists who seem so open-minded to data, stats, and evidence that demonstrates the implausibility of theistic positions and opinions, that when it comes to the stats on guns and gun violence published over and over and over again, the data is somehow corrupt and untrustworthy or "weak."

The data is the data. The stats are the stats. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that more guns does not mean safer for any developed nation on Earth. And lax gun laws in the US, have translated to elevated intentional homicide rates, and an insane frequency of mass shootings.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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03-10-2015, 09:49 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The facts lead some of us away from the illogical views of seeing guns as anything other than machines designed to kill, and that are all to often used to do so.

Yeah they're designed to kill. That's why I have them. No disagreement there. The world is a hostile place, and I have every intention of being as armed as is rationally possible at any given time in the midst of it. Yeah, that increases my chances of getting killed accidentally. Cooking also increases your chances of getting burned, but someone's still gotta do it. Wielding the axe of authority is no different. Feel free to delegate that authority in an effort to protect yourself from your own mistakes if you wish. That's not me. Whether it's a pissed off moose that poses a danger to someone I care about, an active shooter, or a heavily armed extremist in the middle of some random third world country, if I come into contact with them I'm not interested in running and crying for help. I'm taking them down, and I want the means to do so.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 09:52 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:49 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The facts lead some of us away from the illogical views of seeing guns as anything other than machines designed to kill, and that are all to often used to do so.

Yeah they're designed to kill. That's why I have them. No disagreement there. The world is a hostile place, and I have every intention of being as armed as is rationally possible at any given time in the midst of it. Yeah, that increases my chances of getting killed accidentally. Cooking also increases your chances of getting burned, but someone's still gotta do it. Wielding the axe of authority is no different. Feel free to delegate that authority in an effort to protect yourself from your own mistakes if you wish. That's not me. Whether it's a pissed off moose that poses a danger to someone I care about, an active shooter, or a heavily armed extremist in the middle of some random third world country, if I come into contact with them I'm not interested in running and crying for help. I'm taking them down, and I want the means to do so.

The reality is that the US isn't so hostile as to warrant the wild wild west solution of always being armed.

That is a bit too much of a John Wayne attitude towards life with far too little reality thrown in.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
It also reminds me too much of Pascal's Wager.

"It is better to believe in god, just in case hell is real."

"It is better to be strapped than not because the next guy might be a terrorist."

Which of course brings up another problem, how do the cops recognize the good guy with a gun, from the bad guy with a gun? Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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03-10-2015, 09:56 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:49 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Yeah they're designed to kill. That's why I have them. No disagreement there. The world is a hostile place, and I have every intention of being as armed as is rationally possible at any given time in the midst of it. Yeah, that increases my chances of getting killed accidentally. Cooking also increases your chances of getting burned, but someone's still gotta do it. Wielding the axe of authority is no different. Feel free to delegate that authority in an effort to protect yourself from your own mistakes if you wish. That's not me. Whether it's a pissed off moose that poses a danger to someone I care about, an active shooter, or a heavily armed extremist in the middle of some random third world country, if I come into contact with them I'm not interested in running and crying for help. I'm taking them down, and I want the means to do so.

The reality is that the US isn't so hostile as to warrant the wild wild west solution of always being armed.

That is a bit too much of a John Wayne attitude towards life with far too little reality thrown in.

Maybe not in your bubble. I've spent most of my adult life dealing with the threats you pretend don't exist. I know very well what's out there.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:56 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The reality is that the US isn't so hostile as to warrant the wild wild west solution of always being armed.

That is a bit too much of a John Wayne attitude towards life with far too little reality thrown in.

Maybe not in your bubble. I've spent most of my adult life dealing with the threats you pretend don't exist. I know very well what's out there.

And there is the anecdotal evidence. If I won't accept anecdotes as evidence of god that trumps the actual evidence and stats and data, why would I buy it for guns?

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-Rick
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