[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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03-10-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 08:23 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Okay I'm gonna make a big ass post and then probably just go to bed and not bother keeping up. These threads just seem to grow too fast if you don't have the option to sit here and check and respond every 7 minutes.

First... And I'm not saying this because I personally give a shit about being offended or people playing nice, merely an observation. But whenever a hot topic comes up, whether it's guns, religion, politics in general, etc., it ultimately becomes a matter of each side saying about the other side something along the lines of "Dammit these people are so stupid how can they not get it? They WANT kids to die! Those mother fuckers! Every single thing wrong with the world is their fault!"

... And this view is complete bullshit. For either side. Intelligence has very little to do with this. There are both really smart and really dumb people who are pro gun or anti gun. Atheist or Scientologist. Green Party or Tea Party. Given the demographic of the stereotypical atheist, I realize that many of my views may be non-standard. But I have never used "You're stupid!" as an argument to make my point. About the worst I've mustered was my comment a few pages back about you guys being a bunch of hippies. That had nothing to do with the debate, however, and let me say now that if I offended any of you hippies with the hippie comment, I apologize... You oversensitive freaking hippies Laughat

That said, I'm not by any means saying stop name calling. I don't actually give a shit. I'm a super genius, arrogant as hell about that undeniable scientific fact, and it'll take a lot more than that to get through my kevlar plated thick skin.

Now about gun culture... I've rambled on about how I was raised before. I spent half my childhood in an isolated fishing village in Alaska and the other half on an island in the Puget Sound. Especially in Alaska, we carried guns. Period. Past 10 years old, me leaving the house unarmed probably would have earned me an ass whooping, and for good reason. There was dangerous shit out there (moose and the occasional bear), and we didn't have the option of having professional babysitters all over the place to monitor our every move and guarantee our safety. Then I left and joined the military where again, guns were just a part of life. Go to the outhouse to take a shit and forget to bring your gun with you, and you earn the military equivalent of the above mentioned ass whooping.

Now most of you hippies (again, I apologize, I know some of you are actually hipsters rather than hippies and I don't mean to generalize) grew up in a completely different world. If you walk into Starbucks and see someone sitting peacefully at his table, reading a newspaper, sipping on a mochalattefrappelowfatvegancappucinno, and who happens to be wearing a cowboy hat and have an AR-15 slung around his back, you're gonna freak. If I see the same thing, I'll think nothing of it. This isn't because of some kind logical inconsistency between the two of us, it's because you're hippies who, through no fault of your own, aren't used to this kind of thing. Therefore, cowboy hats are likely to freak you out. And maybe the AR-15 as well. The difference isn't rational, it's cultural.

Now moving on to the debate at hand... Both sides must realize we're quite unlikely to come to a rational agreement. Wherever our ways of thinking originated, we have different ways of dealing with the same problems. It doesn't mean we want different outcomes in mind. An anti gun hippie who believes in gun free zones doesn't want kids to be shot by nut cases any more than a gun nut like me does. We just happen to have different beliefs in regards to handling the situation, and those beliefs have almost nothing to do with logic.

So instead of hashing through the same bullshit debates we've already had 387 times, I'm simply going to state that I will continue owning the guns I wish to own (while in the U.S.), and if you have a problem with that then, by all means, build a hippie army to stop me. Because ultimately the world doesn't work based on laws in and of themselves, it works based on the leverage in place to back up the enforcement of those laws. And, unfortunately for those of you who have intentionally disarmed yourselves and placed yourselves at odds with me and people like me, I just so happen to be that leverage.

Nicely put.

So, it seems that you've highlighted two conflicting cultures:

1) A Darwinian world where 'Security' is localised / personalised to ensure survival (Continuity).

2) A Civilised world where society has been organised / proceduralised to manage Security and Continuity and where personalised protection should not be necessary.

Having only ever lived in counties that fall into the latter category, it's hard for me to empathise with (relate to) the former. I concur.

I certainly agree that the sight of a cowboy hat would trigger an alert ... "Warning: Potential Republican In The Vacinity - AVOID!"

Big Grin

So, as ever, it boils down to ... what kind of society does one want? How to get there? What to do with the dissenters?

Consider

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03-10-2015, 10:08 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 09:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:56 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Maybe not in your bubble. I've spent most of my adult life dealing with the threats you pretend don't exist. I know very well what's out there.

And there is the anecdotal evidence. If I won't accept anecdotes as evidence of god that trumps the actual evidence and stats and data, why would I buy it for guns?

[Image: tumblr_n77jcc7kbY1qcbo9lo1_500.jpg]

The difference between me and a religious zealot is that I have nothing to gain from converting you. In fact, if I don't agree with your outlook, I have the potential to benefit from you remaining unarmed should my paranoid worries come to fruition and I have to take up arms. If I did have an interest in converting you beyond internet pride, then I'd have to concede that yes, anecdotal data makes for an irrational argument. Nonetheless, I've got my memories, and they don't disappear just because I can't prove their validity to you. I will never be able to view even the most self proclaimed safe countries as anything other than a week away from pillaging, rape, and genocide under the right conditions, which can occur very quickly and unpredictably. From my perspective, the school shootings, though sad, are statistically insignificant.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 10:11 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 10:08 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:59 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And there is the anecdotal evidence. If I won't accept anecdotes as evidence of god that trumps the actual evidence and stats and data, why would I buy it for guns?

[Image: tumblr_n77jcc7kbY1qcbo9lo1_500.jpg]

The difference between me and a religious zealot is that I have nothing to gain from converting you. In fact, if I don't agree with your outlook, I have the potential to benefit from you remaining unarmed should my paranoid worries come to fruition and I have to take up arms. If I did have an interest in converting you beyond internet pride, then I'd have to concede that yes, anecdotal data makes for an irrational argument. Nonetheless, I've got my memories, and they don't disappear just because I can't prove their validity to you. I will never be able to view even the most self proclaimed safe countries as anything other than a week away from pillaging, rape, and genocide under the right conditions, which can occur very quickly and unpredictably. From my perspective, the school shootings, though sad, are statistically insignificant.

At least your honest about your reasons being based on an apocalyptic conspiracy.

(Although you do seem to invalidate one of the things in a former reply of yours that everyone cares about the kids when you explicitly state that the events surrounding their deaths are "statistically insignificant." This is troubling as it embodies the essence of the argument from the pro-gun side, the object and the fantasy are more important than the people.)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 10:12 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
And yes, you do have something to "gain" by converting me. You gain the ability to keep the laws and regulations the way you see fit to maintain your weapons and fantasies.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 10:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, as ever, it boils down to ... what kind of society does one want? How to get there? What to do with the dissenters?

Consider

The best I can come up with relies heavily on science fiction at a Star Trek level. I don't believe an ideal society is achievable as things are today. The need to exert violence is too important to our survival at this point in time for there to be overall peace. The best we can hope for is that those without a disposition making them ideal for violent confrontation remain relatively sheltered behind the walls of an empire or a society allied to an empire.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 10:16 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 10:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And yes, you do have something to "gain" by converting me. You gain the ability to keep the laws and regulations the way you see fit to maintain your weapons and fantasies.

I'm going to maintain them whether you change the laws or not.

Edit: And I wouldn't call them fantasies, at least not in the sense that you're referring to. Whether locally as a nutcase or somewhere else in the context of the next deployment, looking at the shit going on I think it's safe to bet I'll have yet another opportunity to do what I do before the decade is up.

'Murican Canadian
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03-10-2015, 10:21 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 10:16 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And yes, you do have something to "gain" by converting me. You gain the ability to keep the laws and regulations the way you see fit to maintain your weapons and fantasies.

I'm going to maintain them whether you change the laws or not.

That would be debatable.

If you had to pay insurance for your guns, were unable to procure things like high-capacity magazines, had to take a mental evaluation on a regular basis, and redo your training with the firearm periodically as well as a class on proposer usage and situational awareness, you certainly wouldn't be able to maintain them in the same way.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 10:23 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(03-10-2015 10:16 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And yes, you do have something to "gain" by converting me. You gain the ability to keep the laws and regulations the way you see fit to maintain your weapons and fantasies.

I'm going to maintain them whether you change the laws or not.

Edit: And I wouldn't call them fantasies, at least not in the sense that you're referring to. Whether locally as a nutcase or somewhere else in the context of the next deployment, looking at the shit going on I think it's safe to bet I'll have yet another opportunity to do what I do before the decade is up.

Comparing the US to war zones, is still a fantasy.

And no one is arguing for soldiers to have their guns taken away while deployed in hostile territory. This is a conversation about civilians and off-duty personnel living in a non-combat setting, i.e. society.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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03-10-2015, 10:40 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 10:13 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, as ever, it boils down to ... what kind of society does one want? How to get there? What to do with the dissenters?

Consider

The best I can come up with relies heavily on science fiction at a Star Trek level. I don't believe an ideal society is achievable as things are today. The need to exert violence is too important to our survival at this point in time for there to be overall peace. The best we can hope for is that those without a disposition making them ideal for violent confrontation remain relatively sheltered behind the walls of an empire or a society allied to an empire.

I'm not sure whether you are familiar with the Ancient Greeks and their search for the perfect civilisation?

Before one can hold a belief on whether an ideal society is achievable, one has to define what is meant by 'an ideal society'.

Policies and processes follow from those desired outcomes.

A coupla quotes from Hitch:
Quote:The search for nirvana, like the search for utopia or the end of history or the classless society, is ultimately a futile and dangerous one. It involves, if it does not necessitate, the sleep of reason. There is no escape from anxiety and struggle.
-- Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays, 2004

Quote:In other words the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure, and what is true could always go on.

Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that’s the only conversation worth having.
-- closing remarks in a debate with William Dembski.

Sooo... what is your definition of an ideal society?

Smile

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03-10-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 10:40 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:13 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The best I can come up with relies heavily on science fiction at a Star Trek level. I don't believe an ideal society is achievable as things are today. The need to exert violence is too important to our survival at this point in time for there to be overall peace. The best we can hope for is that those without a disposition making them ideal for violent confrontation remain relatively sheltered behind the walls of an empire or a society allied to an empire.

I'm not sure whether you are familiar with the Ancient Greeks and their search for the perfect civilisation?

Before one can hold a belief on whether an ideal society is achievable, one has to define what is meant by 'an ideal society'.

Policies and processes follow from those desired outcomes.

A coupla quotes from Hitch:
Quote:The search for nirvana, like the search for utopia or the end of history or the classless society, is ultimately a futile and dangerous one. It involves, if it does not necessitate, the sleep of reason. There is no escape from anxiety and struggle.
-- Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays, 2004

Quote:In other words the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure, and what is true could always go on.

Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that’s the only conversation worth having.
-- closing remarks in a debate with William Dembski.

Sooo... what is your definition of an ideal society?

Smile

My vision of perfect society is pre civilization tribal egalitarianism. In everything since then, our emotional tendencies and bonobo comparable sexual instincts have been a detriment rather than an aid to our survival, leading to the evolution of cultures that necessarily suppress those instincts, thereby keeping us alive but chronically discontent. Like no matter how good things are on paper, something is always missing because we're just out of context. Our biological evolution hasn't caught up with our modern realities yet.

Any system that would be comfortable to exist in would also leave us vulnerable to the threats of life within the context of civilization.

'Murican Canadian
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