[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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04-10-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 02:47 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 01:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Do you always carry a weapon because you're afraid something might happen, despite most days nothing does?

Do you always leave your smoke alarms on even though most days you don't need them? Do you wear a seatbelt?

As TBD would say, "smoke alarms and seatbelts....pascal's wager for fires and automobile accidents"

No, I let it beep at my when it's off and get offended at it trying to tell me to do something so I leave it broken without a battery.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-10-2015, 02:50 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(04-10-2015 02:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Data is limited on almost all facets of gun violence in the US. Our congress just refused an amendment that would allow the CDC to collect data on why mass shootings occur.

We have a congress so inept at doing anything sensible, that they are ensuring that the grey areas remain not only grey, but out of public sight.

Um. Was there any justification offered for refusing the amendment?

None I've seen

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-10-2015, 02:51 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(04-10-2015 02:47 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 01:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Do you always carry a weapon because you're afraid something might happen, despite most days nothing does?

Do you always leave your smoke alarms on even though most days you don't need them? Do you wear a seatbelt?

As TBD would say, "smoke alarms and seatbelts....pascal's wager for fires and automobile accidents"

Don't straw man me by trying to put words in my mouth or by assuming you know what I'd say.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-10-2015, 03:00 PM
Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 02:47 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 01:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Do you always carry a weapon because you're afraid something might happen, despite most days nothing does?

Do you always leave your smoke alarms on even though most days you don't need them? Do you wear a seatbelt?

As TBD would say, "smoke alarms and seatbelts....pascal's wager for fires and automobile accidents"

I live in a fairly violent society yet I don't feel unsafe walking around without a gun... My feeling of relative safety stems from the now-common large-scale employment of private security firms in public places like shopping malls, and in city neighbourhoods. These guys are highly trained and do act as a deterrent for most criminals. The criminals have responded themselves by arming themselves better - so the system is definitely not foolproof, but incidents are much less now than they used to be, at least in more affluent areas of town.

Realistically here in SA the biggest problem is the wealth gap - the rich are absurdly rich, the poor are ridiculously poor and the middle class are *still*, by the standards of the poor, absurdly rich. The security firms are a stop-gap measure which has proven highly effective, but IMO unless someone with half a brain steps in soon to address the income inequality and lack of access to basic life necessities that most people here experience, then there will be blood.

My point is though, that sure, guns can be your lil' smoke detector or whatever strained analogy you want to make, but they are not the only possible solution to your problems, and even if they are effective, you can find ways to use them that don't involve every untrained Joe having the right to carry one.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-10-2015, 03:05 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(04-10-2015 03:00 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 02:47 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Do you always leave your smoke alarms on even though most days you don't need them? Do you wear a seatbelt?

As TBD would say, "smoke alarms and seatbelts....pascal's wager for fires and automobile accidents"

I live in a fairly violent society yet I don't feel unsafe walking around without a gun... My feeling of relative safety stems from the now-common large-scale employment of private security firms in public places like shopping malls, and in city neighbourhoods. These guys are highly trained and do act as a deterrent for most criminals. The criminals have responded themselves by arming themselves better - so the system is definitely not foolproof, but incidents are much less now than they used to be, at least in more affluent areas of town.

Realistically here in SA the biggest problem is the wealth gap - the rich are absurdly rich, the poor are ridiculously poor and the middle class are *still*, by the standards of the poor, absurdly rich. The security firms are a stop-gap measure which has proven highly effective, but IMO unless someone with half a brain steps in soon to address the income inequality and lack of access to basic life necessities that most people here experience, then there will be blood.

My point is though, that sure, guns can be your lil' smoke detector or whatever strained analogy you want to make, but they are not the only possible solution to your problems, and even if they are effective, you can find ways to use them that don't involve every untrained Joe having the right to carry one.

My point is that smoke detectors, seat belts, insurance, etc, are all measures taken because of perceived threats. But the difference between them and guns? If I put smoke detectors in my house, they pose no risk to me or my family. Having insurance poses no threat to me or others. Wearing a seat belt is far more likely to benefit me than not, and someone not wearing a seatbelt can't harm or kill someone else.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-10-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 02:47 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 01:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Do you always carry a weapon because you're afraid something might happen, despite most days nothing does?

Do you always leave your smoke alarms on even though most days you don't need them? Do you wear a seatbelt?

As TBD would say, "smoke alarms and seatbelts....pascal's wager for fires and automobile accidents"

My smoke alarm is in the ceiling. I don't really think much about it.

It's not like it needs to be set each day or something -- it has a 10 year back up battery and hard wired into my house.

Seatbelts are the law. I don't think there's a law requiring people to carry guns.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-10-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 11:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Again... Guns aren't the problem. Would stricter gun laws prevent these tragedies? No. No, they wouldn't. If someone wants a gun, they will get a gun. The latest shooter had some of his guns given to him by relatives... no amount of gun laws can prevent that.

Guns. Are. Not. The. Problem.

What is?

Society. Specifically mental health and poverty. Violence and the propencity for violence towards others is directly linked to these two factors just like drunk driving is directly linked to drinking alcohol and driving instead of the vehicle itself.

Instead of focusing on "fixing" guns, we need to focus on the run-away epidemic in our country which is proper care and rehabilitation of the mentally I'll (in any capacity) and the poverty which is a cesspool for violent crimes.

These are the real issues. I'm so tired of people rah-rahing and jumping on the derp wagon about guns and gun control while ignoring these two issues. We all need to come together as a society and actively fight to get the mentally ill well and improve property.

We've proved that we, as a society, can come together to fixed or actively fight against societal problems or health problems: look at the fight against smoking. Or, the active stand against bullying. Or, the campaign against and education for teen pregnancy. These have proved successful.

If we educate, understand, empathize, and take a stand for these two issues as a society, gun violence WILL decrease. Not only will it decrease, but it is also a viable solution that makes the gun debate irrelavent; thus, eliminating the need to argue about the subject.

The whole gun debate is a huge strawman.

Reposting for pertinence.

No amount of guns laws will stop the current epidemic we're facing. Maybe if the government executed anyone on sight with even a suspicion of having a gun (ironic as that is) would this change things.

Violent crimes aren't just people with guns shooting others. As Dark Helmet listed, it's a whole lot else. Chopping off one arm of an octopus doesn't stop it from hunting.

There has to be a culture change and a change in how we care for the mentally ill and curb poverty.

Again... these are the factors DIRECTLY linked to violent crimes. Not guns. Not gun laws.

Change these things via societal change, and the whole gun debate all but goes away... because, like DH said, it's not law abiding citizens committing these crimes.

But continue to straw man away. That's the good thing about straw men. They're always there to grab onto and shake and take the blame while the real crises is allowed to fester and rot away society.

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04-10-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
So did they ever find out if this individual was Indeed atheist?

Seems out of character on one hand as non religion equates to lack of passion towards religious beliefs, but on the other hand I have witnessed extreme hatred and degredation of an unparalleled level from atheistic sights. Just further proof that change is coming for better or worse.

Maybe that loon always preaching about unconditional peace has a valid point!
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04-10-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 03:34 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So did they ever find out if this individual was Indeed atheist?

Seems out of character on one hand as non religion equates to lack of passion towards religious beliefs, but on the other hand I have witnessed extreme hatred and degredation of an unparalleled level from atheistic sights. Just further proof that change is coming for better or worse.

Maybe that loon always preaching about unconditional peace has a valid point!

Maybe he was just saying - do you believe in god - yes, here meet your maker.

May have just been something he rehearsed to say with no real deep meaning.

Until the facts are in (whatever are available) it's speculation as to why he did or said anything.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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04-10-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 03:39 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 03:34 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So did they ever find out if this individual was Indeed atheist?

Seems out of character on one hand as non religion equates to lack of passion towards religious beliefs, but on the other hand I have witnessed extreme hatred and degredation of an unparalleled level from atheistic sights. Just further proof that change is coming for better or worse.

Maybe that loon always preaching about unconditional peace has a valid point!

Maybe he was just saying - do you believe in god - yes, here meet your maker.

May have just been something he rehearsed to say with no real deep meaning.

Until the facts are in (whatever are available) it's speculation as to why he did or said anything.
I'm sorry but if it didn't hold any significance to the shooter that he would have shot all in the head indiscriminately regardless of their answer.
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