[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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04-10-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 05:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 04:48 PM)Anjele Wrote:  No and no.

Put away your persecution flag, it doesn't fly well here.
Who am i persecuting?

For those who don't follow Seth's Facebook, and for any others who want to claim that this kid was shooting Christians - here is Seth's post from just a few minutes ago. Pops - get some facts together before you assume this was some form of retaliation/persecution of Christians.

***There's no basis for the claim that Christopher Mercer was an atheist. His social media profile identified him as "Not Religious, but Spiritual." And according to a report in the New York Times, Mercer's own mother declared to neighbors that her son had "mental issues." He was both reclusive and prone to violent outbursts, so while we have no official diagnosis, we see the smoke which indicates fire.

Even if the second-hand reports are true, and Mercer asked students about their faith (not Christianity...but their faith) before shooting them, those same reports say Mercer had heard "Christian" and replied, "Good...you're going to see God."
In this context, and in every context, we don't see the persecution of Christians or Christianity in this country (regardless of what Tennessee Lieutenant Governer Ron Ramsey claims). We see the tragic, horrific act of a deeply troubled person which needs to be seen in the context of mental illness, not clumsily borrowed so that a certain religious sect can climb upon their bodies to cry, "Martyr!"

Christians have never had more latitude or freedom in this country, with the exception that, finally, they're being asked to meet a Burden of Proof, and they're being reminded that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution applies to them as much as everyone else.

For the "Pray for Roseburg" crowd, realize that any omniscient deity foresaw this execution of children long before it happened...and did absolutely nothing. Why would a god so uninterested on Thursday suddenly be taking requests on Friday?
It's ridiculous. These are real world problems, and we must work to find a solution in the real world. SA

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-10-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 05:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Who am i persecuting?

For those who don't follow Seth's Facebook, and for any others who want to claim that this kid was shooting Christians - here is Seth's post from just a few minutes ago. Pops - get some facts together before you assume this was some form of retaliation/persecution of Christians.

***There's no basis for the claim that Christopher Mercer was an atheist. His social media profile identified him as "Not Religious, but Spiritual." And according to a report in the New York Times, Mercer's own mother declared to neighbors that her son had "mental issues." He was both reclusive and prone to violent outbursts, so while we have no official diagnosis, we see the smoke which indicates fire.

Even if the second-hand reports are true, and Mercer asked students about their faith (not Christianity...but their faith) before shooting them, those same reports say Mercer had heard "Christian" and replied, "Good...you're going to see God."
In this context, and in every context, we don't see the persecution of Christians or Christianity in this country (regardless of what Tennessee Lieutenant Governer Ron Ramsey claims). We see the tragic, horrific act of a deeply troubled person which needs to be seen in the context of mental illness, not clumsily borrowed so that a certain religious sect can climb upon their bodies to cry, "Martyr!"

Christians have never had more latitude or freedom in this country, with the exception that, finally, they're being asked to meet a Burden of Proof, and they're being reminded that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution applies to them as much as everyone else.

For the "Pray for Roseburg" crowd, realize that any omniscient deity foresaw this execution of children long before it happened...and did absolutely nothing. Why would a god so uninterested on Thursday suddenly be taking requests on Friday?
It's ridiculous. These are real world problems, and we must work to find a solution in the real world. SA
Yeah non-religious generally means atheistic. I don't know what all that other rambling is supposed to mean. Oh and by the way I never said he was atheistic you did
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04-10-2015, 07:29 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 07:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  For those who don't follow Seth's Facebook, and for any others who want to claim that this kid was shooting Christians - here is Seth's post from just a few minutes ago. Pops - get some facts together before you assume this was some form of retaliation/persecution of Christians.

***There's no basis for the claim that Christopher Mercer was an atheist. His social media profile identified him as "Not Religious, but Spiritual." And according to a report in the New York Times, Mercer's own mother declared to neighbors that her son had "mental issues." He was both reclusive and prone to violent outbursts, so while we have no official diagnosis, we see the smoke which indicates fire.

Even if the second-hand reports are true, and Mercer asked students about their faith (not Christianity...but their faith) before shooting them, those same reports say Mercer had heard "Christian" and replied, "Good...you're going to see God."
In this context, and in every context, we don't see the persecution of Christians or Christianity in this country (regardless of what Tennessee Lieutenant Governer Ron Ramsey claims). We see the tragic, horrific act of a deeply troubled person which needs to be seen in the context of mental illness, not clumsily borrowed so that a certain religious sect can climb upon their bodies to cry, "Martyr!"

Christians have never had more latitude or freedom in this country, with the exception that, finally, they're being asked to meet a Burden of Proof, and they're being reminded that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution applies to them as much as everyone else.

For the "Pray for Roseburg" crowd, realize that any omniscient deity foresaw this execution of children long before it happened...and did absolutely nothing. Why would a god so uninterested on Thursday suddenly be taking requests on Friday?
It's ridiculous. These are real world problems, and we must work to find a solution in the real world. SA
Yeah non-religious generally means atheistic. I don't know what all that other rambling is supposed to mean. Oh and by the way I never said he was atheistic you did

You said he shot them in the head when they said they were Christian. This whole story is not about religion or about Christians being shot or in any other way persecuted. However, as has already played out...some groups are playing the martyr card.

Read what Seth wrote again about trying to make this about religion in any way.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-10-2015, 07:31 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:29 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 07:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah non-religious generally means atheistic. I don't know what all that other rambling is supposed to mean. Oh and by the way I never said he was atheistic you did

You said he shot them in the head when they said they were Christian. This whole story is not about religion or about Christians being shot or in any other way persecuted. However, as has already played out...some groups are playing the martyr card.

Read what Seth wrote again about trying to make this about religion in any way.
I read it thoroughly and I never said anything about any martyrs or anything of the sort I simply stated that he shot Christians in the head and shot others in the leg.
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04-10-2015, 07:34 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:31 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 07:29 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You said he shot them in the head when they said they were Christian. This whole story is not about religion or about Christians being shot or in any other way persecuted. However, as has already played out...some groups are playing the martyr card.

Read what Seth wrote again about trying to make this about religion in any way.
I read it thoroughly and I never said anything about any martyrs or anything of the sort I simply stated that he shot Christians in the head and shot others in the leg.

And what does that mean to you if not that Christians were targeted for death and thereby martyred for their faith? Please explain it to me.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-10-2015, 07:35 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:34 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 07:31 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I read it thoroughly and I never said anything about any martyrs or anything of the sort I simply stated that he shot Christians in the head and shot others in the leg.

And what does that mean to you if not that Christians were targeted for death and thereby martyred for their faith? Please explain it to me.
It means just what I said. Christians were killed others were not it's really simple. If someone can claim to these Christian children wear martyrs than okay I guess that's not what I'm claiming I'm claiming they were murdered.
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04-10-2015, 07:36 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
I guess technically it's one in the same I just don't really like that word. Generally when I say that word it means they were sacrificed by their own free will which I guess after the first one was shot in the face and the second one said they were a Christian I guess the second one was technically a martyr.
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04-10-2015, 07:44 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I guess technically it's one in the same I just don't really like that word. Generally when I say that word it means they were sacrificed by their own free will which I guess after the first one was shot in the face and the second one said they were a Christian I guess the second one was technically a martyr.

Yes, technically being murdered for professing your faith is martyrdom.

However, there are still conflicting stories as to the truth of those claims. The claims that the shooter was mentally ill appear to be reliable since they have come from different sources. The claim that he asked certain questions of certain people is still not entirely clear.

Either way, there was a tragic loss of life at the hands of someone who, with the information we have, would have greatly benefited from mental health care.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-10-2015, 07:45 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 10:57 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:40 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm not sure whether you are familiar with the Ancient Greeks and their search for the perfect civilisation?

Before one can hold a belief on whether an ideal society is achievable, one has to define what is meant by 'an ideal society'.

Policies and processes follow from those desired outcomes.

A coupla quotes from Hitch:
-- Love, Poverty, and War: Journeys and Essays, 2004

-- closing remarks in a debate with William Dembski.

Sooo... what is your definition of an ideal society?

Smile

My vision of perfect society is pre civilization tribal egalitarianism. In everything since then, our emotional tendencies and bonobo comparable sexual instincts have been a detriment rather than an aid to our survival, leading to the evolution of cultures that necessarily suppress those instincts, thereby keeping us alive but chronically discontent. Like no matter how good things are on paper, something is always missing because we're just out of context. Our biological evolution hasn't caught up with our modern realities yet.

Any system that would be comfortable to exist in would also leave us vulnerable to the threats of life within the context of civilization.

My vision is a society of scientific understanding. One where through science we can understand our evolutionary genetic predispositions and drives. One where we understand our own neurological complexity and endocrine responses and can control our fears and prejudices. A global society with the ability to educate the masses, end violence, end hunger, embrace diversity. One where faith is replaced by reason and evidence. One where science and medicine can cure mental illness and disease. One where we will developed tools to explore and someday fully understand the universe or multiverse. One where we realize just how significant or insignificant we are "a universe of atoms - an atom in the universe."

I know what your thinking...Isn't that a John Lennon song

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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04-10-2015, 07:46 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(04-10-2015 07:34 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 07:31 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I read it thoroughly and I never said anything about any martyrs or anything of the sort I simply stated that he shot Christians in the head and shot others in the leg.

And what does that mean to you if not that Christians were targeted for death and thereby martyred for their faith? Please explain it to me.

So you did not read the account of an actual victim who said that was not happening.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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