[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-10-2015, 09:13 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(05-10-2015 08:35 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 08:11 PM)kineo Wrote:  Ok, but... same for pro-gun-nuts. Angel

Edit:

I mean, this is the shit that happens when people think that guns prevent violence:
A man shoots the victim of a car-jacking while attempting to stop the car-jacking in progress. He failed to stop the car-jacking, shot the victim in the head, and didn't bother to stick around and help that innocent guy that he just shot.

I know, that's anecdotal. It's one incident out of many. But the reality is, most people who have guns aren't trained to intervene to save someone's life. They will overreact to a situation (in this case, completely escalating to a nearly fatal level), or simply be caught off guard.

I heard about that story too. I guess it was believed at first that the guy was shot by mistake, but the local ABC news on TV reported that after being checked at the hospital the guys head injury came from being hit on the head by the carjackers not a gun shot. This article also says the injury came from being hit on the head as well. http://abc13.com/news/witness-who-fired-...-/1004386/

Hmm, you're right- I had heard 2 different reports of the victim being shot- this is the first I've heard that he was hit on the head. I guess once the first narrative gets out, it's hard to correct it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(05-10-2015 06:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 05:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The stats I linked to from the article (that appears to have been unread) compares two pieces of information linked by a common factor, guns. Your comparison of people killed by pianos/fridges/couches to terrorism, have no link. That's comparing apples to oranges.

The stat is that one group who put themselves in harm's way to protect their community, die at a frequency lower than preschoolers by the same means, and is the exact opposite trend one might expect in a civilized country. This should give someone cause for concern and a reason to ponder why that is so.

Apparently it just caused a knee-jerk reaction to want to ignore/dismiss it. Which isn't unexpected I guess.

You quoted raw numbers, not rates. Translate that into deaths/thousands and the cops are in more danger.

There are about 2.5 million police officers in the US population of of nearly 320 million. So far this year 24 police officers have been shot and killed in the line of duty. Two of them were killed by other cops. Translated into homicides per 100,000 your average police officer is 10 times more likely to kill another cop than your average civilian is.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

[Image: anigrey.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Popeye's Pappy's post
06-10-2015, 06:43 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 06:37 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 06:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  You quoted raw numbers, not rates. Translate that into deaths/thousands and the cops are in more danger.

There are about 2.5 million police officers in the US population of of nearly 320 million. So far this year 24 police officers have been shot and killed in the line of duty. Two of them were killed by other cops. Translated into homicides per 100,000 your average police officer is 10 times more likely to kill another cop than your average civilian is.

Funny how the numbers turn up, isn't it??

The problem with applying statistical numbers to any given population is that any given population is comprised of people - and people are notoriously predictable - at doing unpredictable things...

Getting people to behave well, is like herding cats.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 07:26 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 06:43 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 06:37 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  There are about 2.5 million police officers in the US population of of nearly 320 million. So far this year 24 police officers have been shot and killed in the line of duty. Two of them were killed by other cops. Translated into homicides per 100,000 your average police officer is 10 times more likely to kill another cop than your average civilian is.

Funny how the numbers turn up, isn't it??

The problem with applying statistical numbers to any given population is that any given population is comprised of people - and people are notoriously predictable - at doing unpredictable things...

Getting people to behave well, is like herding cats.

Just ran the numbers to check Chas's claim that it is more dangerous to be a cop. I'm working with some very rough numbers here of 319 million people, 2.5 million cops, 12,000 total gun homicides and 25 cops killed with firearms per year. Using those numbers the gun homicide victim rate in the general population is 3.76 per 100,000 annually. For the police it is 1 per 100,000. Based on those numbers it looks like it is more dangerous to be a civilian than it is to be a cop.

Chas, if my base assumptions or my math are wrong please feel free to correct me.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

[Image: anigrey.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(05-10-2015 08:39 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  
(05-10-2015 07:31 PM)kineo Wrote:  Lousiville slugger doesn't market weapons. They don't market bats as weapons. They don't try to make weapons seem cool. They market objects used in a game that also happen to be able to be used as weapons in a pinch. I mean, anything club-like could be used similarly. Gun manufacturers make weapons. Sometimes tools for hunting, sure, but almost all weapons.

They also benefit from the heightened fear the brews as a result of situations like this. People are afraid of other people with guns- so the answer? Buy a gun to protect yourself. People are afraid that the government will take away guns. The answer? Buy up as many guns as you can afford before they become outlawed.

Gun manufacturers benefit from lax gun control, because more sales. Loop holes mean more sales. So, let's get a lobbying group like the NRA to more fear that your rights are going to be infringed upon- while pressing for fewer laws, less oversight, and less transparency. So you should buy more guns while you can! And ammo! And mods! And 30 round mags! You'll especially need those assault rifles when the government needs to be overthrown!

I grew up with guns. My dad is a gun owner. I enjoy firing weapons. It's fun! I'm not very good at it, but I really enjoyed that AR-15. I really wanted one myself, for a while. But after Sandy Hook, it's just not worth it to me anymore. It's just... too... fucking... much.

We've got an insane amount of guns in this country. And gun violence is out of control.

[Image: gunsdeaths2.006.0.jpg]

I think some serious gun control is necessary. I mean- it's roughly the same amount of deaths as auto accidents. And you all know every other fucker out there on the road can't drive for shit!

[Image: gunsdeaths2.005.0.jpg]

Img source: http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9446193/gun...-terrorism


If it were a class action law suit, then the risk is quite a bit more distributed. I'd imagine we'd see a rather large case against them.


Yes. I say hit the gun manufacturers and their puppet, the holy church of the NRA, right in the only place that they truly care about, their pocket book. Go after their outrageous profits. They could give two shits about the shootings except for the fact that it's great marketing! "Great another shooting Sell Sell Sell" $ $ $ This has never been about responsible gun owners.

Yep - gun store owners love mass shootings.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-louis-are...-shooting/
http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/07/news/gun-sales/

I could keep include story after story. AR-15s apparently sell like hotcakes after a mass murder.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 07:34 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(03-10-2015 05:40 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  So more guns in schools is the answer! WTF are you serious:

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide

Responsible gun ownership according to study indicates that it is safer not to own a gun: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

Sorry for the re-post, but I think we keep ignoring the most relevant data.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ted Tucker's post
06-10-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Sorry Ted -- I'm not feeling very suicidal -- so that screws your data up -- as it accounts suicide as a danger from guns....

.....

But if having a gun in YOUR house makes you want to off yourself - feel free not to own a gun..

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 07:26 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 06:43 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Funny how the numbers turn up, isn't it??

The problem with applying statistical numbers to any given population is that any given population is comprised of people - and people are notoriously predictable - at doing unpredictable things...

Getting people to behave well, is like herding cats.

Just ran the numbers to check Chas's claim that it is more dangerous to be a cop. I'm working with some very rough numbers here of 319 million people, 2.5 million cops, 12,000 total gun homicides and 25 cops killed with firearms per year. Using those numbers the gun homicide victim rate in the general population is 3.76 per 100,000 annually. For the police it is 1 per 100,000. Based on those numbers it looks like it is more dangerous to be a civilian than it is to be a cop.

Chas, if my base assumptions or my math are wrong please feel free to correct me.

The only numbers I could find for the estimated number of cops in the US is ~1.2 million (maybe that excludes administration)

In any event, that puts the rate at 2.08 per 100k, still lower than the general population.

In 2013, the number of children aged 0-4 was ~19.9 million. So, at 87 deaths for that group, the rate comes out 0.44 per 100k. So, that specific group has a lower rate than cops, but doesn't justify the absolute numbers being higher still.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(01-10-2015 06:06 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  But it is, in fact, a Constitutional right. So there's that.

Remind me of that the next time there's a mass shooting. By my reckoning, should be within 8 to 13 weeks. Big Grin

You know I love ya Chas.

So what would you suggest? A ban on guns? How would that work? Would people with guns come to get other people's guns?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-10-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:06 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 06:06 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Remind me of that the next time there's a mass shooting. By my reckoning, should be within 8 to 13 weeks. Big Grin

You know I love ya Chas.

So what would you suggest? A ban on guns? How would that work? Would people with guns come to get other people's guns?

I think we should just nuke the lot of ya Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: