[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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06-10-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:20 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:12 AM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  My oldest daughter suffers from depression. The last thing I want in my house is a gun...
A gun doesn't make it more likely that someone will kill themselves. Just look at countries like Japan and France. No guns, higher rate of suicide. The U.K. and Australia have very similar rates of suicide as America. Guns are rare in those countries.

There are other societal issues behind that, that could be solved if Japan took a really hard look at their own society. We also have issues that need solving. But guns certainly make changing you've pulled the trigger a non-option.

Personally, I suffer from depression myself. I won't be having a gun in my home. I don't want one. If I need protection, mace will have to suffice. I'm not suicidal, but I suppose you never know if something pushes you to that edge.

Lots of people who think they're fine can have something in their lives trigger depression- temporary or chronic- and having a gun around them is dangerous.

I personally think there ought to be a ban on guns unless you can show a need to have one. But I don't see that ever happening in the US. At least not in the short term. A more reasonable suggestion would possible include a combination of stricter controls in place, bans on assault rifles, bans on large magazine sizes, licensing requirements, gun safety requirements, closing the gun show loopholes, better tracking of gun violence, and mental health screening. The bottom line is, it's got to be more difficult to get guns or we'll never see a decline in gun violence. It seems that the price of gun freedom is gun deaths.
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06-10-2015, 08:42 AM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(06-10-2015 08:39 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who ever claimed the rifle "made him do it?"

That is a straw man Drinking Beverage

Ummm...yeah....not everyone gets my sense of humour I suppose..

It's a typical response from the pro-gun side, making it hard to determine if it's sarcastic or sincere.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-10-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:37 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:20 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  A gun doesn't make it more likely that someone will kill themselves. Just look at countries like Japan and France. No guns, higher rate of suicide. The U.K. and Australia have very similar rates of suicide as America. Guns are rare in those countries.

Easy access to a gun makes an attempted suicide more likely to succeed. You can fuck up trying to hang or cut yourself, you can freak out an call 911 after swallowing a bottle of pills; you don't get a second chance when you put the barrel up to your head and pull the trigger. Plus, that's way easier and takes less time; it is a suicide enabler.
But still no guns in the countries I mentioned. Yet their suicides are still successful, and at a higher rate than America.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:39 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Ummm...yeah....not everyone gets my sense of humour I suppose..

It's a typical response from the pro-gun side, making it hard to determine if it's sarcastic or sincere.

Big Grin
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06-10-2015, 08:56 AM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(06-10-2015 08:53 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:37 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Easy access to a gun makes an attempted suicide more likely to succeed. You can fuck up trying to hang or cut yourself, you can freak out an call 911 after swallowing a bottle of pills; you don't get a second chance when you put the barrel up to your head and pull the trigger. Plus, that's way easier and takes less time; it is a suicide enabler.
But still no guns in the countries I mentioned. Yet their suicides are still successful, and at a higher rate than America.

No one is claiming that guns results in more suicidal people. That's a straw man

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-10-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:36 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:12 AM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  My oldest daughter suffers from depression. The last thing I want in my house is a gun...

An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older or about one in four adults suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people

So don't get a gun. Pretty simple solution there..

Done. Facepalm

The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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06-10-2015, 09:01 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:53 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  But still no guns in the countries I mentioned. Yet their suicides are still successful, and at a higher rate than America.

No one is claiming that guns results in more suicidal people. That's a straw man
My response was meant to show that having a gun in the house around the daughter with depression is an irrational fear. If she wants to commit suicide as a result of the depression, she will no matter what. If she doesn't have access to a gun, she'll jump off a bridge. Just like in the countries without guns, the rates are similar or higher than the U.S.

Suicidal people will always find a way. That was my only point. Not that guns result in more suicidal people.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 09:17 AM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:57 AM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:36 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  So don't get a gun. Pretty simple solution there..

Done. Facepalm

The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.
Oh come on. Having a firearm has a higher rate of firearm suicide? You think? I bet there's a higher rate of suicide by hanging with people that own rope. Or suicide by overdose in homes where drugs are. That's a pointless statistic.

I'd choose a gun too, if available. It's painless. No suffering.

Edit: although I am open to suggestions of the theory that Japan would have MORE suicides if guns were available due to the reason I brought up. Painless and quick, i.e. using a gun removes some of the fear of the suffering that one would incur from another method.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 09:32 AM by Emma.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:04 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:57 AM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  Done. Facepalm

The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.
Oh come on. Having a firearm has a higher rate of firearm suicide? You think?

Well, yes.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firear...p-and-use/

But moreover, having a firearm leads to a greater rate of suicide in general, according to the Harvard research above.

Edit: changed "study" to "research".

Quote:The higher rates of suicide among gun owners and their families cannot be explained by higher rates of suicidal behavior, but can be explained by easy access to a gun.
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06-10-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:20 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:04 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Oh come on. Having a firearm has a higher rate of firearm suicide? You think?

Well, yes.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firear...p-and-use/

But moreover, having a firearm leads to a greater rate of suicide in general, according to the Harvard study above.

Quote:The higher rates of suicide among gun owners and their families cannot be explained by higher rates of suicidal behavior, but can be explained by easy access to a gun.
Yes. I can see that. See my edit in my last post.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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