[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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06-10-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:24 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:20 AM)kineo Wrote:  Well, yes.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firear...p-and-use/

But moreover, having a firearm leads to a greater rate of suicide in general, according to the Harvard study above.
Yes. I can see that. See my edit in my last post.

I see, you must have made the edit while I was writing my post. But I don't quite understand what your edit is getting across. Can you please rephrase it? Sorry- not trying to be difficult, just trying to be able to respond better.
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06-10-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:27 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:24 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Yes. I can see that. See my edit in my last post.

I see, you must have made the edit while I was writing my post. But I don't quite understand what your edit is getting across. Can you please rephrase it? Sorry- not trying to be difficult, just trying to be able to respond better.

I believe that having a gun available makes the decision to go through with the suicide an easier decision. If the choices are a painful hanging, or jumping from a building slamming into the ground, or slowly bleeding out from cutting wrists, or shooting yourself and having and instant painless death, I can see why one would choose a gun if available. If one does not have a gun, but are suicidal, they may never actually go through with the suicide due to fear of pain.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 09:45 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:53 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:37 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Easy access to a gun makes an attempted suicide more likely to succeed. You can fuck up trying to hang or cut yourself, you can freak out an call 911 after swallowing a bottle of pills; you don't get a second chance when you put the barrel up to your head and pull the trigger. Plus, that's way easier and takes less time; it is a suicide enabler.
But still no guns in the countries I mentioned. Yet their suicides are still successful, and at a higher rate than America.


Uh, no. Be careful of hyperbolic ultimatums like 'always' and 'never', as even a single example is all that's needed to disprove that statement. You can get access to firearms in both countries, as indicated by there being a greater than zero suicide by firearms rate. So I have to ask, what's your point? There are a number of factors involved in the end product that is 'suicide rate per 100,000'. You're smarter than that. The rates for France and Japan show that a higher rate sans firearms is possible, but that doesn't at all negate the points I made. Having access to a firearm makes a suicide attempt more likely (because of how easy and relatively painless it is), and more likely to succeeded (you're less likely to fuck it up, and there are no second chances when successful).

Plus, isn't that the pro-gun argument anyways? If someone is really determined to do a mass shooting, they'll get the guns and do it. Likewise if someone is really intent on killing themselves, they'll get it done. Why you're trying to argue with me for pointing out the fact that for both 'easy access to firearms makes that easier to accomplish' is beyond me.

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06-10-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:32 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:27 AM)kineo Wrote:  I see, you must have made the edit while I was writing my post. But I don't quite understand what your edit is getting across. Can you please rephrase it? Sorry- not trying to be difficult, just trying to be able to respond better.

I believe that having a gun available makes the decision to go through with the suicide an easier decision. If the choices are a painful hanging, or jumping from a building slamming into the ground, or slowly bleeding out from cutting wrists, or shooting yourself and having and instant painless death, I can see why one would choose a gun if available. If one does not have a gun, but are suicidal, they may never actually go through with the suicide due to fear of pain.

Ahh ok, then it sounds like I agree with you on that. But to add to it, those that do go through the the attempt, are far less likely to success than they are with a gun. Failing to commit suicide means a new change to heal and live an full life. A gun tends to wipe away the chance for that pretty handily.
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06-10-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Another false assumption...

"Easy access to a gun leads to suicide" is probably less correct than "suicidal people who've made up their mind to off themselves frequently go buy a gun".

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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06-10-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:07 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Another false assumption...

"Easy access to a gun leads to suicide" is probably less correct than "suicidal people who've made up their mind to off themselves frequently go buy a gun".

Going and actually buying a gun I imagine would be rarer than just using the tools that were at hand...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-10-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:07 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Another false assumption...

"Easy access to a gun leads to suicide" is probably less correct than "suicidal people who've made up their mind to off themselves frequently go buy a gun".

And you are assuming. You accuse the Harvard researchers of a false assumption, while you make a larger leap by making assumptions of your own.
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06-10-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 09:04 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'd choose a gun too, if available. It's painless. No suffering.

Too messy and not guaranteed. Nitrogen exit bag. No muss no fuss. Out in 10-12 seconds with no suffocation effect, and dead 2-3 minutes later. Cohort spends 5 minutes to remove and dispose of the bag and return the nitrogen tank to the shed and it looks like natural causes. .... But I haven't really given it much thought.

#sigh
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06-10-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:24 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:04 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'd choose a gun too, if available. It's painless. No suffering.

Too messy and not guaranteed. Nitrogen exit bag. No muss no fuss. Out in 10-12 seconds with no suffocation effect, and dead 2-3 minutes later. Cohort spends 5 minutes to remove and dispose of the bag and return the nitrogen tank to the shed and it looks like natural causes. .... But I haven't really given it much thought.

Well, good thing its not on your mind or anything. And if it was, I'd hope you get the help you needed.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 12:04 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Is it about time for somebody to show up with the statistic about how many suicide attemptees don't re-attemp after the first failure, and how many first-time suicide attemptees succeed when using a gun (leading to the conclusion that most people regret attempting suicide or find reason to live afterwards, while those who use a gun often don't get the chance to regret)? Or has that already happened?

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