[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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06-10-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:44 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Is it about time for somebody to show up with the statistic about how many suicide attemptees don't re-attemp after the first failure, and how many first-time suicide attemptees succeed when using a gun (leading to the conclusion that most people regret attempting suicide or find reason to live afterwards, while those who use a gun often don't get the change to regret)? Or has that already happened?

Don't know if it happend yet, but not in this last couple of pages. If you have such a statistic, do share. Smile
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06-10-2015, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 11:17 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:50 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 10:44 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Is it about time for somebody to show up with the statistic about how many suicide attemptees don't re-attemp after the first failure, and how many first-time suicide attemptees succeed when using a gun (leading to the conclusion that most people regret attempting suicide or find reason to live afterwards, while those who use a gun often don't get the change to regret)? Or has that already happened?

Don't know if it happend yet, but not in this last couple of pages. If you have such a statistic, do share. Smile


Sure.
~7% of first attempt survivors die by subsequent suicide. ~23% try again and fail. And ~70% never try again.

And for your well no duh moment of the day, "A history of previous attempts is lower among those dying by firearm suicide and higher among those dying by overdose."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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06-10-2015, 11:20 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 11:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 10:50 AM)kineo Wrote:  Don't know if it happend yet, but not in this last couple of pages. If you have such a statistic, do share. Smile


Sure.
~7% of first attempt survivors die by subsequent suicide. ~23% try again and fail. And ~70% never try again.

And for your well no duh moment of the day, "A history of previous attempts is lower among those dying by firearm suicide and higher among those dying by overdose."

My godmother shot herself in the head. Her daughter in jr high at the time found her.

It wasn't her first attempt, she tried twice before that -- but it was the first time with a gun.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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06-10-2015, 11:28 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 11:33 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:33 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 10:24 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Too messy and not guaranteed. Nitrogen exit bag. No muss no fuss. Out in 10-12 seconds with no suffocation effect, and dead 2-3 minutes later. Cohort spends 5 minutes to remove and dispose of the bag and return the nitrogen tank to the shed and it looks like natural causes. .... But I haven't really given it much thought.

Well, good thing its not on your mind or anything. And if it was, I'd hope you get the help you needed.

Staring into the abyss while meditating on my gear has saved my sorry ass more than once.

"That idea of giving people access to a means of feeling that they're back in control of this issue is actually a way of prolonging life. It may seem paradoxical, but what we find is when people feel that they're back in control, they're less likely to do desperate things."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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06-10-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 10:19 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 10:07 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Another false assumption...

"Easy access to a gun leads to suicide" is probably less correct than "suicidal people who've made up their mind to off themselves frequently go buy a gun".

And you are assuming. You accuse the Harvard researchers of a false assumption, while you make a larger leap by making assumptions of your own.
Actually I did not.

I pointed out that they made the assumption.

There's no way of proving one way or the other - so, because they have an anti - gun bias - they choose option "a".....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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06-10-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 11:34 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 10:19 AM)kineo Wrote:  And you are assuming. You accuse the Harvard researchers of a false assumption, while you make a larger leap by making assumptions of your own.
Actually I did not.

I pointed out that they made the assumption.

There's no way of proving one way or the other - so, because they have an anti - gun bias - they choose option "a".....

Your words were:

Quote:"Easy access to a gun leads to suicide" is probably less correct than "suicidal people who've made up their mind to off themselves frequently go buy a gun".

Emphasis added. When you guess like that, you can't tell me that you're not making an assumption. Especially when you have no basis for your assumption other than being pro-gun.
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06-10-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 11:20 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 11:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Sure.
~7% of first attempt survivors die by subsequent suicide. ~23% try again and fail. And ~70% never try again.

And for your well no duh moment of the day, "A history of previous attempts is lower among those dying by firearm suicide and higher among those dying by overdose."

My godmother shot herself in the head. Her daughter in jr high at the time found her.

It wasn't her first attempt, she tried twice before that -- but it was the first time with a gun.

So sorry about this Mom.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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06-10-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 08:42 AM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:20 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  A gun doesn't make it more likely that someone will kill themselves. Just look at countries like Japan and France. No guns, higher rate of suicide. The U.K. and Australia have very similar rates of suicide as America. Guns are rare in those countries.

There are other societal issues behind that, that could be solved if Japan took a really hard look at their own society. We also have issues that need solving. But guns certainly make changing you've pulled the trigger a non-option.

Personally, I suffer from depression myself. I won't be having a gun in my home. I don't want one. If I need protection, mace will have to suffice. I'm not suicidal, but I suppose you never know if something pushes you to that edge.

Lots of people who think they're fine can have something in their lives trigger depression- temporary or chronic- and having a gun around them is dangerous.

I personally think there ought to be a ban on guns unless you can show a need to have one. But I don't see that ever happening in the US. At least not in the short term. A more reasonable suggestion would possible include a combination of stricter controls in place, bans on assault rifles, bans on large magazine sizes, licensing requirements, gun safety requirements, closing the gun show loopholes, better tracking of gun violence, and mental health screening. The bottom line is, it's got to be more difficult to get guns or we'll never see a decline in gun violence. It seems that the price of gun freedom is gun deaths.

Yes let's take a look at Japan and France as they compare to the U.S. :

   

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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06-10-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 01:00 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 08:42 AM)kineo Wrote:  There are other societal issues behind that, that could be solved if Japan took a really hard look at their own society. We also have issues that need solving. But guns certainly make changing you've pulled the trigger a non-option.

Personally, I suffer from depression myself. I won't be having a gun in my home. I don't want one. If I need protection, mace will have to suffice. I'm not suicidal, but I suppose you never know if something pushes you to that edge.

Lots of people who think they're fine can have something in their lives trigger depression- temporary or chronic- and having a gun around them is dangerous.

I personally think there ought to be a ban on guns unless you can show a need to have one. But I don't see that ever happening in the US. At least not in the short term. A more reasonable suggestion would possible include a combination of stricter controls in place, bans on assault rifles, bans on large magazine sizes, licensing requirements, gun safety requirements, closing the gun show loopholes, better tracking of gun violence, and mental health screening. The bottom line is, it's got to be more difficult to get guns or we'll never see a decline in gun violence. It seems that the price of gun freedom is gun deaths.

Yes let's take a look at Japan and France as they compare to the U.S. :

To be fair, we were talking specifically about suicides. Your graph shows homicides.
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06-10-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 01:04 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 01:00 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  Yes let's take a look at Japan and France as they compare to the U.S. :

To be fair, we were talking specifically about suicides. Your graph shows homicides.

Yes true my bad. However the graph does show how we stand compared to the rest of the world on gun violence which is appalling.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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