[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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06-10-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Did you just compare America's drug problem with that of 3rd world countries?

How did you come to the conclusion that America's drug problem is equivalent to that of a third world country?

I meant the barbarism that accompanies those issues.

Why do you think the gang violence and crime associated with it are any different in the US than in any other first world country?

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06-10-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I meant the barbarism that accompanies those issues.

Why do you think the gang violence and crime associated with it are any different in the US than in any other first world country?

Is it because the gangs here can get access to guns more easily than in other first world countries, thereby enhancing the severity of the violence?

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06-10-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I meant the barbarism that accompanies those issues.

Why do you think the gang violence and crime associated with it are any different in the US than in any other first world country?

I imagine it has something to do with failed drug policy, weak laws, cops unable to clamp down for fear of being labeled racists, and criminals that are emboldened by those issues.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 02:51 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(06-10-2015 02:47 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why do you think the gang violence and crime associated with it are any different in the US than in any other first world country?

I imagine it has something to do with failed drug policy, weak laws, cops unable to clamp down for fear of being labeled racists, and criminals that are emboldened by those issues.

Yeah, a failed war on drugs is in part to blame for the drug problem and the addiction problem and the incarceration problem. But the violence associated with it?

As for "weak laws" around drugs, we have some of the strongest among developed nations, so...

And as for fear of being labeled "racists," now I'm just completely lost. Cops in the US clearly haven't cared about that for decades. And it isn't like other countries don't have racial issues too.

I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. The gun violence in our nation isn't because of our gun laws and regulations, it's because of our drugs and drug laws? Does not compute.

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06-10-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 02:28 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:23 PM)morondog Wrote:  I don't think it's attempting to illustrate a correlation. What I think it's doing is pointing out that your firearm homicides per population unit are pretty high, comparative to every other developed nation excluding Mexico, and that therefore there's clearly *some* reason for that. Whether it be rates of gun ownership or something else... that is not possible to infer from the graph as far as I can see.

We've got problems, no doubt about it. What we don't have, however, is unlimited resources with which to deal with those problems. It would therefore make sense to let the data determine which solutions to pursue rather than going on a witch hunt for something just because we're not personally comfortable with it.

Agreed. We have many problems other than guns to solve. How can you say that reasonable legislation as in expanding background checks, illuminating the the gun show loopholes, and holding gun manufacturers liable not going to reduce homicides? Really a witch hunt? Seems pretty rational to me.

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06-10-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 02:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:47 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I imagine it has something to do with failed drug policy, weak laws, cops unable to clamp down for fear of being labeled racists, and criminals that are emboldened by those issues.

Yeah, a failed war on drugs is in part to blame for the drug problem and the addiction problem and the incarceration problem. But the violence associated with it?

As for "weak laws" around drugs, we have some of the strongest among developed nations, so...

And as for fear of being labeled "racists," now I'm just completely lost. Cops in the US clearly haven't cared about that for decades. And it isn't like other countries don't have racial issues too.

I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. The gun violence in our nation isn't because of our gun laws and regulations, it's because of our drugs and drug laws? Does not compute.

I've worked in law enforcement for many many years. Trust me when I say we have to tread carefully in everything we do when it comes to minorities. We are much more careful in our interactions with minorities than with whites. I'm not talking about the idiots that kill unarmed people, I'm talking about your everyday Joe in law enforcement, security, even a rent a cop. Everything always comes back to "you only stopped me because you're a racist." Or they lie and say we said the N word. My first wife was half Indian and half African American. I have two kids with her. Yet I've had to defend myself against racial allegations more than 100 times in my career at trial. So yes, we are very weary of the accusations and some in law enforcement will even overlook small crimes by minorities just to avoid the extended drama.

If you removed the guns from the U.S. would we still have a high murder rate in the big cities? Would the drug wars continue? Would the gangs continue? What would work better, removing the guns from America, or removing the criminals permanently? My belief is stronger laws, I'm talking real punishment here, like 20 year minimum sentence for first time offenders, would straighten this junk up quickly.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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06-10-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 03:04 PM)Ted Tucker Wrote:  holding gun manufacturers liable

This one I can't see how it would fly. Can make laws restricting advertising I guess. No scare mongering, warnings on guns similar to warnings on cigarettes "Warning: Firing a gun can kill." That sort of thing.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-10-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(06-10-2015 03:11 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  My belief is stronger laws, I'm talking real punishment here, like 20 year minimum sentence for first time offenders, would straighten this junk up quickly.

You realise this would take manpower and resources to implement. When you guys IIRC already have one of the highest incarceration rates of any country. Also, cruel and unusual - unconstitutional. You can't apply harsh sentences for small crimes.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-10-2015, 03:24 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(06-10-2015 03:11 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, a failed war on drugs is in part to blame for the drug problem and the addiction problem and the incarceration problem. But the violence associated with it?

As for "weak laws" around drugs, we have some of the strongest among developed nations, so...

And as for fear of being labeled "racists," now I'm just completely lost. Cops in the US clearly haven't cared about that for decades. And it isn't like other countries don't have racial issues too.

I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. The gun violence in our nation isn't because of our gun laws and regulations, it's because of our drugs and drug laws? Does not compute.

I've worked in law enforcement for many many years. Trust me when I say we have to tread carefully in everything we do when it comes to minorities. We are much more careful in our interactions with minorities than with whites. I'm not talking about the idiots that kill unarmed people, I'm talking about your everyday Joe in law enforcement, security, even a rent a cop. Everything always comes back to "you only stopped me because you're a racist." Or they lie and say we said the N word. My first wife was half Indian and half African American. I have two kids with her. Yet I've had to defend myself against racial allegations more than 100 times in my career at trial. So yes, we are very weary of the accusations and some in law enforcement will even overlook small crimes by minorities just to avoid the extended drama.

If you removed the guns from the U.S. would we still have a high murder rate in the big cities? Would the drug wars continue? Would the gangs continue? What would work better, removing the guns from America, or removing the criminals permanently? My belief is stronger laws, I'm talking real punishment here, like 20 year minimum sentence for first time offenders, would straighten this junk up quickly.

Now I'm really confused. What does any of this have to do with the rationale behind not changing our gun laws and regulations? Why bring the straw man back about it being about banning all guns? Who ever implied that better gun laws would solve all murder problems or gang violence or crime? No

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06-10-2015, 03:26 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root ...
(06-10-2015 03:11 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yeah, a failed war on drugs is in part to blame for the drug problem and the addiction problem and the incarceration problem. But the violence associated with it?

As for "weak laws" around drugs, we have some of the strongest among developed nations, so...

And as for fear of being labeled "racists," now I'm just completely lost. Cops in the US clearly haven't cared about that for decades. And it isn't like other countries don't have racial issues too.

I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. The gun violence in our nation isn't because of our gun laws and regulations, it's because of our drugs and drug laws? Does not compute.

I've worked in law enforcement for many many years. Trust me when I say we have to tread carefully in everything we do when it comes to minorities. We are much more careful in our interactions with minorities than with whites. I'm not talking about the idiots that kill unarmed people, I'm talking about your everyday Joe in law enforcement, security, even a rent a cop. Everything always comes back to "you only stopped me because you're a racist." Or they lie and say we said the N word. My first wife was half Indian and half African American. I have two kids with her. Yet I've had to defend myself against racial allegations more than 100 times in my career at trial. So yes, we are very weary of the accusations and some in law enforcement will even overlook small crimes by minorities just to avoid the extended drama.

If you removed the guns from the U.S. would we still have a high murder rate in the big cities? Would the drug wars continue? Would the gangs continue? What would work better, removing the guns from America, or removing the criminals permanently? My belief is stronger laws, I'm talking real punishment here, like 20 year minimum sentence for first time offenders, would straighten this junk up quickly.

Also, do you realize that admitting that minorities are treated differently than white people is admitting to racial profiling?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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