[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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07-10-2015, 10:03 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 09:58 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 09:30 PM)kineo Wrote:  Not really true. About 13% happen in gun free zones (spoiler alert, Limbaugh is wrong).





Edit: Oh yeah, Kyle also talks about the Chicago example in this video. Essentially- Chicago's gun laws and crime rate are a bad example for gun control's effectiveness. People can simple step out of the city, buy a gun, then tote it back to the city. It's a short drive from Chicago to the suburbs, Wisconsin, or even Indiana. If you really want a gun, you'll get one. That's why we need effective federal controls in place. Moreover, the failed drug war has got to end. It only contributes to more gang violence. I'm pretty much with Kyle on this one- legalize, tax, and regulate drugs. The drug war does nothing to stop people from using. It only forces people under ground and to even more unsafe alternatives. Hell, with the taxes, we can fund programs to cut down on usage even more- like with smoking, to make drugs uncool and unappealing. And we could fund better rehab centers. But our current approach sucks.

Laugh out load

Sorry, but no. 92% is correct. The 13% crap is just wrong. To get their 13% number, they counted things like drug/gang violence, shootings that happened as part of domestic violence (like a kid is packing a firearm to protect himself when dad goes nuts, yeah right), and situations where guns are technically not banned, like on the street of L.A. True, L.A. doesn't really "ban" guns, but you can't get a permit to carry, so that would actually be considered a gun free zone.

The 92% comes from only looking at crimes that meet the definition of "active shooter" by the FBI. These cases are almost always in "gun free zones." Colleges, elementary schools, libraries, movie theaters, churches, places of employment.

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uplo...mberg2.pdf

Just look at this list of mass shootings with active shooter events. Almost all of them took place in gun free zones, or places where nobody would be carrying a gun because the state doesn't issue concealed weapon permits.

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-s...-rampages/

So what you're saying is that spree shooters don't go on sprees out in the woods? Color me surprised...

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07-10-2015, 10:07 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 09:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 08:44 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I disagree. I think they do it exactly because they do wanna be remembered.

And I disagree. They are batshit insane and could not give less of a fuck whether they' are remembered or not.

Yes they do. They're deprived attention and so seek it elsewhere. They want everyone to know that this guy that everyone picked on did this or that this radical muslim did this in the name of allah or whatever the fuck.

There's always a reason and they want people to know that reason.

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07-10-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 10:07 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 09:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And I disagree. They are batshit insane and could not give less of a fuck whether they' are remembered or not.

Yes they do. They're deprived attention and so seek it elsewhere. They want everyone to know that this guy that everyone picked on did this or that this radical muslim did this in the name of allah or whatever the fuck.

There's always a reason and they want people to know that reason.

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07-10-2015, 10:37 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 04:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who is going to pay them? Consider

Who is going to pay to arm teachers? All the responses to the problem are going to cost money.

Oh wait, allowing everyone to be armed all the time isn't!!! It's *perfect*. Everyone can bring their own gun. If they get shot *then* then it's their own damn fault.

The good guys with the guns will shoot the bad guy with the guns, there will never be any confusion as to who the good guys with the guns are because *they* will have been to firearms training courses and of course the *bad* guys will pull out their weapons *first*. There will be reduced or zero collateral deaths because the good guys will be such excellent shots.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-10-2015, 12:15 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 10:07 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 09:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And I disagree. They are batshit insane and could not give less of a fuck whether they' are remembered or not.

Yes they do. They're deprived attention and so seek it elsewhere. They want everyone to know that this guy that everyone picked on did this or that this radical muslim did this in the name of allah or whatever the fuck.

There's always a reason and they want people to know that reason.
I agree to some extent. I think...it's not exactly fame/infamy they want. It's more like, they know the impact of a mass killing, especially a school one and they want to make that impact. I don't know if they care about being remembered or whatnot, but I think they care about being a catalyst of terror.

I strongly believe if these weren't happening so often then they would happen much less frequently (yes that sounds like a stupid tautology I know). But what I mean is I strongly believe that seeing mass killings happening reinforces the belief in potential mass killers that "I can do this....he did it. I can too."

Of course this is just conjecture...

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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08-10-2015, 12:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2015 12:21 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 03:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:07 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Such is a good deterrent, but compare footsteps to trigger-pulls.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate?

LDH more or less hit it -- response time is vital in such a situation.

Deterrence is good, but there must be a backup for when it fails.

(07-10-2015 04:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not a fast enough reaction? Well, fuck then. Let's just post an armed police officer in every room, with his gun out, at the ready, and trained on the entire classroom; so that if someone moves even somewhat threateningly they can be put down in a fraction of a second.

Well, that certainly wasn't in my mind. I don't claim to have answers nearly as much as questions.

(07-10-2015 04:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We can do better, I just don't think that 'more guns' is the solution to the problem.

I certainly agree with this. I think the real solution lies farther upstream of any crime scene, as I've indicated earlier in this thread: smart guns and much tighter vetting of purchasers.
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08-10-2015, 12:44 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 10:07 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 09:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And I disagree. They are batshit insane and could not give less of a fuck whether they' are remembered or not.

Yes they do. They're deprived attention and so seek it elsewhere. They want everyone to know that this guy that everyone picked on did this or that this radical muslim did this in the name of allah or whatever the fuck.

There's always a reason and they want people to know that reason.

Hence the postings on social media. I don't often agree with you, but I do think posthumous fame/notoriety motivates at least a good proportion of these events.
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08-10-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(08-10-2015 12:17 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm not sure what you mean by that, could you elaborate?
LDH more or less hit it -- response time is vital in such a situation.

Deterrence is good, but there must be a backup for when it fails.


But how much do you want to rely on deterrence, and how effective is lethal deterrence to people who are already consigned to die?

M.A.D. only worked during the Cold War because both NATO and the USSR didn't want to die, and their desire to survive kept them in check. How many of these spree shooters actually survive? How many of them end of just killing themselves? I somehow doubt that 'lethal deterrence' is all that much of a deterrence.


(08-10-2015 12:17 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 04:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not a fast enough reaction? Well, fuck then. Let's just post an armed police officer in every room, with his gun out, at the ready, and trained on the entire classroom; so that if someone moves even somewhat threateningly they can be put down in a fraction of a second.
Well, that certainly wasn't in my mind. I don't claim to have answers nearly as much as questions.


It was my attempt at reductio ad absurdum by extrapolating the desire to close the reaction time gap down to it's smallest possible window, which would require everybody being under the gun at all times. Is it absurd? Yes, that was the point. Arguing that teachers should be armed, because it reduces the response time, is absurd. If response time is your primary concern, there are much better options available for reducing that response time; but likewise the resulting environment is absurd, and I hope that nobody would actually want our schools to operate like this.


(08-10-2015 12:17 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 04:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We can do better, I just don't think that 'more guns' is the solution to the problem.
I certainly agree with this. I think the real solution lies farther upstream of any crime scene, as I've indicated earlier in this thread: smart guns and much tighter vetting of purchasers.


I think many of these problem stem from more systematic problems with society as a whole; like our massive wealth inequality, lack of opportunity, systemic discrimination along racial and economic lines, the erosion of the middle class, stagnant wages and rising costs of living, crumbling infrastructure, education, and social safety nets. I imagine that if the vast majority of people in this country were in a much better position in life, mass shootings wouldn't be a near pandemic problem.

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08-10-2015, 01:18 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(07-10-2015 07:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 07:54 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  A lot can happen in 3 minutes.

Apparently so.

Yeah, I mean, I could rub two out (maybe three even) in that amount of time. Consider

What?

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08-10-2015, 02:41 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Quote:I don't often agree with you

You must be a dumbass if that's the case.

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