[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
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08-10-2015, 07:27 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(08-10-2015 04:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 03:00 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  We need a system where people suspected of being unstable can be reported, ...

Doctors and hospitals are prevented from doing that by HIPPA. Don't know who else would be qualified.

HIPPA could be changed if we wanted, but there are already provisions that allow for the release of protected information without authorization for what they call national priority purposes. One that could apply if we wanted to is:

Quote:Serious Threat to Health or Safety. Covered entities may disclose protected health information that they believe is necessary to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to a person or the public, when such disclosure is made to someone they believe can prevent or lessen the threat (including the target of the threat).

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/und...ummary.pdf

The problem is there is no one to report to. Plus like I said in my last post there also needs to be a notification and appeals process.

There were several people at Virginia Tech that knew Seung-Hui Cho posed a threat to himself and others. Unless I'm confusing him with another school shooter he wrote a paper, play, poem or something where he talked about killing his classmates. The VT staff took a lot of criticism after the massacre. In part because they knew Cho might be dangerous but did nothing to mitigate the threat. I don't see it that way. There was no one for them to report their fears too. That doesn't mean there couldn't be though.

We already have a system in place that allows for real time background checks for gun sales. It just doesn't have enough information in it to help stop these kinds of incidents.

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08-10-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(08-10-2015 07:27 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(08-10-2015 04:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Doctors and hospitals are prevented from doing that by HIPPA. Don't know who else would be qualified.

HIPPA could be changed if we wanted,

Do we want to? That would feel like more of a violation of my 4th Amendment rights to privacy than having to register my handgun violates my 2nd Amendment rights.

(08-10-2015 07:27 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  but there are already provisions that allow for the release of protected information without authorization for what they call national priority purposes. One that could apply if we wanted to is:

[quote]Serious Threat to Health or Safety. Covered entities may disclose protected health information that they believe is necessary to prevent or lessen a serious and imminent threat to a person or the public, when such disclosure is made to someone they believe can prevent or lessen the threat (including the target of the threat).

When they say "a person" do they include the person themself? 'Cause that shit ain't gonna fly.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-10-2015, 09:49 PM
[split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
It isn't about registering your handgun. The courts have already determined the states can do that without violating your 2nd amendment rights. It's about keeping guns out of the hands of crazies. The courts have already ruled that's OK too there just isn't a method in place to stop them from purchasing guns unless they have been declared crazy by the courts.

I read "a person" as a specific individual other than the one in question as well as the public at large. Some judges might read that differently though...

Don't get me wrong here though. I believe the 2nd amendment affirms an individual right. I don't believe in outright bans on any type of small arms although I don't have a problem with making some harder to get than others. The mere sight of my personnel collection of "assualt rifles" would probably make some members of this forum soil their undies. But I don't have a problem with trying to keep guns away from people with known mental health issues, and think we could do a lot better than we do without trampling all over either the 2nd or the 4th amendments.

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12-10-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Playing devil's advocate here- one major problem with banning gun ownership for people with mental health issues is that it will make people think twice about getting help that they might desperately need. And it may further stigmatize people who receive mental health care. Couldn't that further compound the problem rather than lend itself toward helping the situation?

Because, then, you've got people even more afraid to seek treatment for fear of being outed to law enforcement and having their firearms taken away (and/or preventing them from buying them in the future). Which could lead to even more un-diagnosed and un-treated mental illness than there already is, while guns are still just as easily accessible to them as they were before.
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12-10-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
http://mystudentapt.com/2015/10/06/there...t-like-it/

Quote:There’s a Way to Stop Mass Shootings, and You Won’t Like It.

That’s right. You’re not going to like it because it’s going to require you to do something personally, as opposed to shouting for the government, or anyone to “do something!”

You ready? Here it is:

“Notice those around you who seem isolated, and engage them.”

If every one of us did this we’d have a culture that was deeply committed to insuring no one was left lonely. And make no mistake, as I’ve written before loneliness is what causes these shooters to lash out. People with solid connections to other people don’t indiscriminately fire guns at strangers.

I know what you’re thinking. That’s never going to work because no one is going to make the effort to connect with the strange kid sitting by himself at lunch each day. No one is going to reach out to the gawky, awkward guy at work and ask him about his weekend.

You’re probably right and that’s an absolute shame.

Because I can tell you the things that aren’t going to work in this country when it comes to stopping these heinous acts. But they seem to be all anyone says, when inevitably, another person comes forward to inflict their tortured pain on innocent people.

1. Ban All Guns! – Due to the reading of the 2nd amendment and the precedents established by recent Supreme Court cases, this isn’t going anywhere. You’d need an amendment to the Constitution and there will NEVER be 30+ states willing to overturn it. Never mind the multitude of good reasons for its existence, no amount of outrage will overturn it so let’s just stop.

2. Ban All Guns! (pt. 2) – Assuming you actually could overturn the 2nd and outlaw every firearm in the country, then you’d have to go out and get them. Famously, there are more guns than people in the U.S. You couldn’t come close to collecting them all. Further, if Prohibition and the War on Drugs have taught us anything it’s that those intent on breaking the law are going to do just that. Laws be damned.

3. Ban Scary Guns Like the AR-15! – Fully auto weapons are already banned. Most of these shootings occur with a handgun, plain and simple, and these aren’t going anywhere. Murder is illegal, and that doesn’t seem to stop these individuals from performing these atrocious acts. Do you think if there was a ban on shotguns that would stop them?

4. Keep Them Out of the Hands of Bad People! – Felons are prohibited from owing a firearm already. But let’s not forget, the overwhelming majority of these mass shootings aren’t done by criminals and their guns were obtained legally. How can you know who is going to do something like this? You can’t.

5. Do Something About Mental Health! – Cool. Yeah. So, like, free psychologists visits for everyone? Even if you could, the people that have done this haven’t been mentally ill, by and large. And, let’s not forget that medical records are private. Would you endorse mandatory psych screening for everyone and those records being sent to the government? Maybe just those who wish to own a gun? Remember, not every person who has engaged in a mass shooting has owned the gun they performed the act with. This is a complete non-starter of an issue with an insane price tag that does nothing to actually keep a person committed to violence from putting their hands on a gun.

6. Do… SOMETHING! – Gotcha. What do you want to do? “SOMETHING!” Ok, what do you have in mind? “I DON’T KNOW! BUT SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING!” Sure. Agreed. But what? Even Obama has had to say in his latest speech how routine it’s become.

If you can’t tell by this point in the list, there is NOTHING the government or any other organization can do to prevent these events.

You can’t effectively keep drugs out of the hands of those intent on doing drugs. You can’t keep beer out of the hands of high schoolers intent on getting beer. You have a HUGE supply of weapons everywhere and concrete federal law protecting those weapons. You’d have as much luck passing regulation against tornadoes. It would be equally as effective.

So there it is. The god’s honest truth. No entity can do anything meaningful (more than is presently being done) to thwart a disaffected person hell-bent on committing such an act.

But you can.

You can talk to your co-worker for a few minutes. You can talk to the kid in your Physics class that appears to be all alone. You can teach your children to do the same, to make sure no one is left to feel totally isolated. Because that’s the breeding ground. That’s where the seeds are planted.

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Community is easy to take for granted. Most of us have strong family connections and healthy friendships. Most feel as though they’re part of a group, be it community, religious, or work related. But it’s increasingly easy for people on the edges to withdraw and it’s easy for us to forget them.

No, it’s comfortable to forget them. It’s preferred to forget them. It’s highly desired to forget them. And we have to change that.

Holding a sign isn’t going to do anything. And writing your congressman will do even less. But you can do something today, this week, this month. The people you engage may not become life-long friends, and they don’t need to be, but it could be enough to keep someone away from the darkness and isolation needed to eventually think lashing out is an effective strategy for dealing with their pain.

If you’re conflicted at all about the subject, I can’t encourage you enough to read this post by Sam Harris on the subject immediately following Newtown, CT, that I’ve written about before.

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12-10-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
And I highly recommend this article, referenced in the above article. It's a little too long and with more links so I don't feel like quoting it.

The Riddle of the Gun - Sam Harris

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12-10-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
Quote:There’s a Way to Stop Mass Shootings, and You Won’t Like It.

That’s right. You’re not going to like it because it’s going to require you to do something personally, as opposed to shouting for the government, or anyone to “do something!”

You ready? Here it is:

“Notice those around you who seem isolated, and engage them.”

This seems like a gross oversimplification and generalization. Some shooters have been socially awkward, sure. But some have been very social and charismatic. Some suffer from depression or other mental illnesses where increased social interaction is simply not enough to stop such actions. Medical attention is a necessity- drugs and therapy may be required.

Quote:If every one of us did this we’d have a culture that was deeply committed to insuring no one was left lonely. And make no mistake, as I’ve written before loneliness is what causes these shooters to lash out. People with solid connections to other people don’t indiscriminately fire guns at strangers.

This is not true. I'm not arguing against close social ties, by any means, But it doesn't solve this.

Klebold and Harris of the Columbine shooting were known to both have had a close circle of friends.

Quote:I know what you’re thinking. That’s never going to work because no one is going to make the effort to connect

No, I'm thinking it's not going to work because it's a total deflection and oversimplification of the issue. No single approach will stop this from happening.

Quote:1. Ban All Guns! – Due to the reading of the 2nd amendment and the precedents established by recent Supreme Court cases, this isn’t going anywhere. You’d need an amendment to the Constitution and there will NEVER be 30+ states willing to overturn it. Never mind the multitude of good reasons for its existence, no amount of outrage will overturn it so let’s just stop.

It's probably true that it will never happen. But that doesn't mean stronger and more universal gun control won't have a positive impact in reducing gun violence. In fact, I support stronger controls more than a "ban all guns" approach.

Quote:2. Ban All Guns! (pt. 2) – Assuming you actually could overturn the 2nd and outlaw every firearm in the country, then you’d have to go out and get them. Famously, there are more guns than people in the U.S. You couldn’t come close to collecting them all. Further, if Prohibition and the War on Drugs have taught us anything it’s that those intent on breaking the law are going to do just that. Laws be damned.

Gun buyback programs are a thing, and would go a long way toward removing some guns from the streets. Making guns less accessible will make it harder for even the lawbreakers to get access to them. Gun buybacks have had some success, and I think that's part of a good approach.

Plus, while it's brought up- let's go ahead and end the war on drugs so we can reduce gang violence. Tax and regulate.

Quote:3. Ban Scary Guns Like the AR-15! – Fully auto weapons are already banned. Most of these shootings occur with a handgun, plain and simple, and these aren’t going anywhere. Murder is illegal, and that doesn’t seem to stop these individuals from performing these atrocious acts. Do you think if there was a ban on shotguns that would stop them?

It's true that most gun violence occurs with handguns. In fact, most shooting deaths overall are from handguns.

Quote:4. Keep Them Out of the Hands of Bad People! – Felons are prohibited from owing a firearm already. But let’s not forget, the overwhelming majority of these mass shootings aren't done by criminals and their guns were obtained legally. How can you know who is going to do something like this? You can’t.

No, but keeping guns out of the hands of felons isn't a bad plan, generally speaking. It's true that most people who engage in these mass shootings aren't criminals. So maybe reducing their overall availability is a better solutions than trying to target just people who have shown themselves to be bad people already.

Quote:5. Do Something About Mental Health! – Cool. Yeah. So, like, free psychologists visits for everyone? Even if you could, the people that have done this haven’t been mentally ill, by and large.

Well that's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? You don't think that someone who is willing to go on a murderous spree isn't suffering from some sort of mental illness? I'd say that's a pretty damn strong indicator that something is amiss.

If you want to argue that people just didn't know because they weren't diagnosed beforehand, then that's an argument (and one that isn't universally true). So, let's work toward making guns less available as a whole.

Quote:And, let’s not forget that medical records are private. Would you endorse mandatory psych screening for everyone and those records being sent to the government? Maybe just those who wish to own a gun? Remember, not every person who has engaged in a mass shooting has owned the gun they performed the act with. This is a complete non-starter of an issue with an insane price tag that does nothing to actually keep a person committed to violence from putting their hands on a gun.

Medical records are private, yes. But that doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of method that can be put into place to address that doesn't make medical records widely available.

Possibly flagging a person who is deemed by a psychologist as a potential threat to themselves or others. For example, as it stands now, if I were talking to me psychologist and told them anything that indicated that I intended to hurt myself or someone else, then they would be legally obligated to contact law enforcement.

Quote:6. Do… SOMETHING! – Gotcha. What do you want to do? “SOMETHING!” Ok, what do you have in mind? “I DON’T KNOW! BUT SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING!” Sure. Agreed. But what? Even Obama has had to say in his latest speech how routine it’s become.

If you can’t tell by this point in the list, there is NOTHING the government or any other organization can do to prevent these events.

Can government make them never happen again? No. Can government help make it less commonplace? Yes.

This whole blog post wreaks of deflection. I get the premise of reaching out to people. And that's a worthy cause. But to shut down all other avenues at the same time is absurd.

Are the mentally ill used as a scapegoat for the problem? Yes. But that doesn't mean that we can't address mental illness in this country. We can, and we should. Also, the writer suggests that we reach out to people who may be suffering some sort of mental illness. The lonely and socially isolated can develop depression. But at the same time, he's arguing that the shooters haven't been largely mentally ill. Depression is a mental disorder.

Again, I don't disagree that the people should reach out and develop friendships with those that are often alone. But that's not the end-all-be-all solution the writer makes it out to be.
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12-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: [split] Another school shooting... inevitable gun debate speculation of root causes
(12-10-2015 08:37 AM)yakherder Wrote:  And I highly recommend this article, referenced in the above article. It's a little too long and with more links so I don't feel like quoting it.

The Riddle of the Gun - Sam Harris

This was definitely a good article. I agree with Sam Harris on many of his points in the article as well. It was a good and informative read.
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