[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-05-2013, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 04:55 PM by kingschosen.)
[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
(28-04-2013 08:33 AM)JAH Wrote:  I think maybe this question has been asked before so my apologies in front if so. I did do a search.

I wonder why christians need not keep the multiple food laws in the old testament i.e. keep kosher. The explanations I have found on the internet are quite weak to my mind. One short and not at all complete text in Paul, which is so vague as to allow all sorts of things like same sex, sex is the best I have seen. Please consider this as an honest question.

Well, I will answer this. My understanding is that it's showed by the book of Hebrews, essentially the old laws or covenant was a physical representation of the heavenly realities. See chapters 8-10 especially which explain how Jesus brought in a new "covenant" or testament, a new deal by God with mankind if you will, and that the old was simply a shadow of the wonderful covenant to come, kind of God preshadowing what He'd be doing later on. Those chapters explain perfectly though why many of the Old Testament things are no longer adhered to, as they were simply physical symbols if you will of spiritual realities.

So the physical ordinances aren't really necessary. Think about it, the Old Testament kosher laws were designed to protect early Israel from diseased foods and dangerous practices for thousands of years, see the dietary and disease laws. But thousands of years later with better medicine and knowledge of how to keep food clean, they would not be as necessary. By the way, it's good to see some here know what kosher is. There's one alleged contradiction about why Noah brought 7 of clean animals on the ark made by atheists who don't know what kosher is. Smile

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 07:54 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  So the physical ordinances aren't really necessary. Think about it, the Old Testament kosher laws were designed to protect early Israel from diseased foods and dangerous practices for thousands of years, see the dietary and disease laws. But thousands of years later with better medicine and knowledge of how to keep food clean, they would not be as necessary. By the way, it's good to see some here know what kosher is. There's one alleged contradiction about why Noah brought 7 of clean animals on the ark made by atheists who don't know what kosher is. Smile

And the other ordinances are necessary ?

As has been said before, if God's desire had been to protect the early Hebrews from harmful diseases, wouldn't a decently illustrated medical textbook have been more useful than pages of prescriptions for exactly what bloody sacrifice was required to appease the anger of the merciful one ?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 07:54 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  So the physical ordinances aren't really necessary. Think about it, the Old Testament kosher laws were designed to protect early Israel from diseased foods and dangerous practices for thousands of years, see the dietary and disease laws. But thousands of years later with better medicine and knowledge of how to keep food clean, they would not be as necessary. By the way, it's good to see some here know what kosher is. There's one alleged contradiction about why Noah brought 7 of clean animals on the ark made by atheists who don't know what kosher is. Smile

And the other ordinances are necessary ?

As has been said before, if God's desire had been to protect the early Hebrews from harmful diseases, wouldn't a decently illustrated medical textbook have been more useful than pages of prescriptions for exactly what bloody sacrifice was required to appease the anger of the merciful one ?

The New Testament actually did keep some Old Testament ordinances, see e.g. Acts 15:20-29 and 21:25 where the apostles decided some were still necessary like not eating food with the blood, food offered to idols, and no fornication. The 10 commandments are likewise reinforced about not killing, not committing adultery, honoring one's parents, etc. As for a decently illustrated textbook, they didn't have modern paper or a printing press at the time, and the commandments against disease were pretty effective I think in stopping disease.

As far as the sacrifices that wasn't God's idea, as stated by Jeremiah. Why the Israelites started doing it I am not sure, perhaps Moses thought it would help them follow God better and designed the system. Regardless though, it wasn't because of God commanding them to do it.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

God actually said He didn't want such sacrifices and took no pleasure in them, but wanted people to serve Him in a right spirit and take care of the poor instead. For more see Isaiah 43:23, Jeremiah 6:20

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 09:29 AM by Jzyehoshua.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
The Mosaic Law, while it contained some commandments from God like the 10 Commandments, was largely a law written by a man, not God, Moses. As such, some parts like the commandment allowing divorce or requiring sacrifices were actually contrary to God's will and God later discouraged them. As seen above, God repeatedly expressed His annoyance later at the Israelites' sacrifice of animals when all He wanted was for them to repent and do good to the poor, and Jesus later said Moses gave the commandment for divorce against God's original desire for what marriage should involve.

Matthew 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

In other words, some of that Law stuff was Moses' idea, not God's. God largely just ignored people's ignorance at the time but now commands all to repent. (Acts 17:30)

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:25 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Are you saying that some parts of the Bible are not the inspired words of God ? i.e. the bit where you said it was probably Moses's bright idea to kill lots of innocent animals.

I think the printing press excuse is weak. If God's so hot, why couldn't he spot them a blueprint ? It's not like the tech is difficult. Anyway there are plenty of decent hand written medical texts e.g. written by the Greeks, which though completely full of crap by todays standards are still light years ahead of the medical ideas in the Bible.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I trust, since you're not so keen on big M, that you've got a failsafe method for determining which bits of the Bible are God's idea and which are Moses's ?

While you're at it, is there any reason at all that you can advance for believing any of it ?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  Are you saying that some parts of the Bible are not the inspired words of God ? i.e. the bit where you said it was probably Moses's bright idea to kill lots of innocent animals.

I think the printing press excuse is weak. If God's so hot, why couldn't he spot them a blueprint ? It's not like the tech is difficult. Anyway there are plenty of decent hand written medical texts e.g. written by the Greeks, which though completely full of crap by todays standards are still light years ahead of the medical ideas in the Bible.

Correct, the Bible clearly appears to show Moses gave the commandment on divorce contrary to God's will, and that sacrifices of animals were never commanded by God. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it was a commandment from God, some is just preserved for historical detail.

Your point about the printing press though assumes several things though. (1) God had looked into the future to know about the printing press. (2) God would think such a press needed as opposed to using the writing then available on stone tablets and papyrus. As for the Greeks, do you mean the ones around the time of Christ over 1.5 millennia after the Mosaic Law? Isn't that kind of like comparing apples and oranges?

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  I trust, since you're not so keen on big M, that you've got a failsafe method for determining which bits of the Bible are God's idea and which are Moses's ?

While you're at it, is there any reason at all that you can advance for believing any of it ?

I just generally assume what's specifically said to be from God is God's commandment and anything else I evaluate on a case by case basis. There's a lot in the historical books like Chronicles and Kings that God didn't approve of at all, but is related for historical detail, and obviously shouldn't be considered worthy of imitation. God punished Israel severely for their wicked actions as shown in those books, and even the holiest people like Moses, David, and Peter are recorded doing things God didn't like and punished them for.

As for why I believe it, that's based on my own personal experience with God and how God changed me personally because I believed it. I guess you'd say it's experiential.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it was a commandment from God, some is just preserved for historical detail.

Your point about the printing press though assumes several things though. (1) God had looked into the future to know about the printing press. (2) God would think such a press needed as opposed to using the writing then available on stone tablets and papyrus.

So now you're saying God can't see the future or God couldn't have thought of the printing press ? Besides which the Bible is hand written, so the point stands. A medical textbook could have been hand-written and would have been more useful than all the rubbish about sacrifices.

And if God was gonna let extraneous rubbish into his textbook for how to live your life, don'tcha think he could have inspired a later prophet to mark those sections as "irrelevant, but preserved for historical detail" so that millions of people wouldn't waste their lives trying to follow the oh-so-not-God's-idea commands ?

I repeat, what reason is there to believe any of it ?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-05-2013, 09:45 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:39 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  I just generally assume what's specifically said to be from God is God's commandment and anything else I evaluate on a case by case basis. There's a lot in the historical books like Chronicles and Kings that God didn't approve of at all, but is related for historical detail, and obviously shouldn't be considered worthy of imitation. God punished Israel severely for their wicked actions as shown in those books, and even the holiest people like Moses, David, and Peter are recorded doing things God didn't like and punished them for.
All of Moses' ideas about sacrifices are prefaced with the phrase "Thus sayeth the Lord your God" and similar.

Quote:As for why I believe it, that's based on my own personal experience with God and how God changed me personally because I believed it. I guess you'd say it's experiential.
Yay for you. Why should I or anyone else believe it? I think you're hallucinating.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: