[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
06-05-2013, 08:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 07:02 AM)FMC Wrote:  OK, I have a few:

1. Where is heaven?
2. According to christian thinking, those who don't accept god will go to hell. What about those who worship other gods and follows their religions prescripts to the letter?
3. Then...the big one bound to be asked: Why does god allows suffering? Case in point: Boston bombings... an innocent 8 year old victim?

More to follow....

Assuming that there IS a god, . . . and is depicted in the bible, . . . I would say:

1. Somewhere "up" [because you can only have an "up" within a flat earth mechanism], but hidden from man's ability to see it, same as hell, because of the parable of "Lazarus [in heaven] and the rich man [in hell]", who were able to see eachother "from across the great divide".

2. According to the bible, there is only one way to "the father", and that is "by Jesus". How that actually happens is rather vague, with variously different ways of "entering the Kingdom". As good as some other religious person is towards their beliefs, they are damned for not following the right one.

3. Because humans suck.

1. As I come back to reality, . . . "heaven" was [and still is] a place for people to shoot for. . . a type of self protection and an inner desire for "living like a king". . . . and exhaulted position. There's absolutely no evidence that it is true, but people are willing to live however they can [do whatever they can] to obtain it.

2. There IS nothing to any faith but a person's servitude to a system they believe to be real.

3. "Evil things" are just the randomness of existence. It's the young gazelle that falls prey to the cheetah. Wrong place at the wrong time. With humans, these sorts of things should be less prevailent, but all too often, someone does something stupid and innocent people get caught in the middle. There IS no "god" out there who "cares about people" else these things really wouldn't happen. Same for the many young girls who are abucted. . . . raped. . . . murdered . . . . and it is the christian who says "that god doesn't go against a person's [the rapist/murderer] will, . . . . yet, by default, cares MORE about the will of the "evil person" than the victim. It's all just . . . what it is.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 08:07 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 08:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Another theist making his own site!!!!!!!!!!!!! A dime a dozen these days Drinking Beverage

Do you interpret dreams too? Consider

I've heard that atheists make a lot of sites themselves, but maybe that's just hearsay. Smile Funny how you guys spend so much time and energy criticizing someone you don't think exists. Smile

The LC exists. In my mind. And you got to be mad to see him. Mad, I tell you!

So, no. I'm an atheist not because god does not exist, I'm an atheist because you are human. Theists seem to forget that. Consider

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
06-05-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 08:07 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 08:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Another theist making his own site!!!!!!!!!!!!! A dime a dozen these days Drinking Beverage

Do you interpret dreams too? Consider

I've heard that atheists make a lot of sites themselves, but maybe that's just hearsay. Smile Funny how you guys spend so much time and energy criticizing someone you don't think exists. Smile

You're more than welcome to start your own site, but now I know your motives. You come here to generate interest in the hopes of soliciting more traffic for your site.

And, I'll stop wasting my time on the imaginary friends of other people, when they stop trying to use their imaginary friend to intervene in my life via politics.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 09:05 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 07:45 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 05:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  Jefferson was a deist. You have an incorrect understanding of history.

But it doesn't matter what religions the founders practiced. It was not Christianity that spurred the creation of a secular republic, it was The Enlightenment.

What gave power to the concept of a secular government was the excesses of Christianity.

But America was not founded a secular republic, however. It began with William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania in 1682 which was where the modern states of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware are today. Penn was given a grant from the king of England and created his "holy experiment" allowing religious freedom and attracting the persecuted minorities of Europe. It had separation of powers among three branches of government, executive, legislative, and judicial with Penn its first Governor. It had two houses of government, a General Assembly with 200 members designed to increase to 500 with population growth, and a Provincial Council with 72 members who split into 18 member subcommittees; both required 2/3 approval for bill passage. "Free and voluntary" elections allowed the selection of these representatives.

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Separation..._%26_State
http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/William_Penn#History
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp

A "charter of privileges" provided freedoms of religion, property, and trial by jury, and was passed in 1701. A public education system taught everyone a useful trade at age 12 with funding for "useful sciences and inventions." All laws were based upon the Bible including marriage, and Sunday was declared a national day of rest for both citizens and public officials. There were laws against profanity, drinking, cruelty to animals, gambling, homosexuality, rape, prostitution, and incest. Witnesses were commanded to speak "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." I cited the exact laws here:

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Province_of_Pennsylvania
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/pa07.asp

In some ways the government may have been better than today's USA since it gave double damages to those wrongly accused against their accusers, and false witnesses were never to be acknowledged as having valid testimony in court ever again once caught. False witnesses were to undergo the penalty of those they'd helped convict. Any public officials found guilty of abuse of funds were to pay double, with half going to the party wronged, and be dismissed from employment.

Also, unlike other colonies, Penn insisted on fairly purchasing the land from the Native Americans, and maintained friendly relations with them, even walking among them unarmed. He learned their own dialects so he wouldn't need a translator. They esteemed him so highly that when the Seven Years War broke out years later, while other settlements were attacked, Penn's was left alone. Voltaire described Penn's treaty with the tribes as "the only treaty between those people [Native Americans and Christians] that was not ratified by an oath, and that was never infringed."

Pennsylvania in 1780 went on to become the first state to abolish slavery. The Quakers there began the nation's first anti-slavery group and were the primary opponents of slavery until Lincoln's Republicans stopped slavery during the Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_in_...n_Movement
http://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_1/p_7.html

You are confusing colonies with the U.S. The Constitution establishes a secular republic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 09:05 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 07:45 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  But America was not founded a secular republic, however. It began with William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania in 1682 which was where the modern states of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware are today. Penn was given a grant from the king of England and created his "holy experiment" allowing religious freedom and attracting the persecuted minorities of Europe. It had separation of powers among three branches of government, executive, legislative, and judicial with Penn its first Governor. It had two houses of government, a General Assembly with 200 members designed to increase to 500 with population growth, and a Provincial Council with 72 members who split into 18 member subcommittees; both required 2/3 approval for bill passage. "Free and voluntary" elections allowed the selection of these representatives.

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Separation..._%26_State
http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/William_Penn#History
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp

A "charter of privileges" provided freedoms of religion, property, and trial by jury, and was passed in 1701. A public education system taught everyone a useful trade at age 12 with funding for "useful sciences and inventions." All laws were based upon the Bible including marriage, and Sunday was declared a national day of rest for both citizens and public officials. There were laws against profanity, drinking, cruelty to animals, gambling, homosexuality, rape, prostitution, and incest. Witnesses were commanded to speak "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." I cited the exact laws here:

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Province_of_Pennsylvania
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/pa07.asp

In some ways the government may have been better than today's USA since it gave double damages to those wrongly accused against their accusers, and false witnesses were never to be acknowledged as having valid testimony in court ever again once caught. False witnesses were to undergo the penalty of those they'd helped convict. Any public officials found guilty of abuse of funds were to pay double, with half going to the party wronged, and be dismissed from employment.

Also, unlike other colonies, Penn insisted on fairly purchasing the land from the Native Americans, and maintained friendly relations with them, even walking among them unarmed. He learned their own dialects so he wouldn't need a translator. They esteemed him so highly that when the Seven Years War broke out years later, while other settlements were attacked, Penn's was left alone. Voltaire described Penn's treaty with the tribes as "the only treaty between those people [Native Americans and Christians] that was not ratified by an oath, and that was never infringed."

Pennsylvania in 1780 went on to become the first state to abolish slavery. The Quakers there began the nation's first anti-slavery group and were the primary opponents of slavery until Lincoln's Republicans stopped slavery during the Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_in_...n_Movement
http://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_1/p_7.html

You are confusing colonies with the U.S. The Constitution establishes a secular republic.

My brother (albeit a bit of Conservative nutter as of the last few years) has argued vehemently that we are no longer a Republic, as we ought to be. I'm looking at the 2 definitions now, and I can't figure out for the life of me what he was on about. Anyone else heard that BS? Start a new thread on that I suppose? Consider

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 09:19 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 10:59 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 10:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  My response and quotes are intended to support Rev's assertion that Jefferson was, indeed, a Deist as opposed to a Christian as you propose. Do you even know what you're arguing?

I suppose I can accept that Jefferson was a deist but I strongly oppose the concept that he was secular as he strongly believed in a Creator and refused to call himself an atheist. He also believed in the Bible as evidenced by his funding the Bible Society of Virginia. I think Jefferson struggled with the New Testament and concept of the supernatural, as do many Jewish deists. Given the struggles of the Jewish people, I suspect they are disinclined to believe God intervenes in the world, perhaps with some disappointment. Either way, Jefferson was a strong believer in a Creator and the Bible, whether a Christian or not, though he didn't want to believe parts of the Bible dealing with the supernatural.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter. "

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
06-05-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 08:07 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 08:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Another theist making his own site!!!!!!!!!!!!! A dime a dozen these days Drinking Beverage

Do you interpret dreams too? Consider

I've heard that atheists make a lot of sites themselves, but maybe that's just hearsay. Smile Funny how you guys spend so much time and energy criticizing someone you don't think exists. Smile

We're not criticizing god, we're criticizing belief in god. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
06-05-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 09:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 10:59 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  I suppose I can accept that Jefferson was a deist but I strongly oppose the concept that he was secular as he strongly believed in a Creator and refused to call himself an atheist. He also believed in the Bible as evidenced by his funding the Bible Society of Virginia. I think Jefferson struggled with the New Testament and concept of the supernatural, as do many Jewish deists. Given the struggles of the Jewish people, I suspect they are disinclined to believe God intervenes in the world, perhaps with some disappointment. Either way, Jefferson was a strong believer in a Creator and the Bible, whether a Christian or not, though he didn't want to believe parts of the Bible dealing with the supernatural.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter. "

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”

Jefferson didn't like orthodox Christianity or catholic priests. He didn't believe we should place a single religious institution like the Catholic Church or Anglican Church in charge of a state government as was occurring in both Europe and individual states like Connecticut (which again, was run by the Anglican Church with Baptists like those in Danbury imprisoned for their beliefs).

I happen to criticize Catholicism a lot myself, and believe it was simply a repackaging of the Roman Empire which persecuted the original Christians, which is why it started persecuting the real Christians like the Montanists, Donatists, Arians, and Novatians as soon as it got in power per Constantine, and bore no resemblance to the peaceful Christianity of centuries before... not to mention preserving the Roman pagan beliefs like Christmas, Easter, Venus/Aphrodite worship, worship/veneration of Roman gods/'saints', etc.

And Jesus being born of a virgin is a myth, Jefferson was correct about that, as it's not Biblical. The word translated virgin in both the Old and New Testaments, of both the Greek and Hebrew, should've been translated widow instead as seen from 1 Corinthians 7 and the Hebrew word 'almanah.' Mary was never a virgin, just a widow. In fact, the 'Queen of Heaven' (what Catholics call Mary) was an Old Testament deity worshiped by Mass that God punished Israel for worshiping.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
20 ¶ Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

Again, whatever Jefferson's distaste for orthodox Christian institutions like the Catholic and Calvinist churches, he did donate to create the Bible Society of Virginia and did strongly express his belief in a Creator, emphasizing he was not an atheist.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-05-2013 10:01 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(06-05-2013 09:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter. "

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”

Jefferson didn't like orthodox Christianity or catholic priests. He didn't believe we should place a single religious institution like the Catholic Church or Anglican Church in charge of a state government as was occurring in both Europe and individual states like Connecticut (which again, was run by the Anglican Church with Baptists like those in Danbury imprisoned for their beliefs).

I happen to criticize Catholicism a lot myself, and believe it was simply a repackaging of the Roman Empire which persecuted the original Christians, which is why it started persecuting the real Christians like the Montanists, Donatists, Arians, and Novatians as soon as it got in power per Constantine, and bore no resemblance to the peaceful Christianity of centuries before... not to mention preserving the Roman pagan beliefs like Christmas, Easter, Venus/Aphrodite worship, worship/veneration of Roman gods/'saints', etc.

And Jesus being born of a virgin is a myth, Jefferson was correct about that, as it's not Biblical. The word translated virgin in both the Old and New Testaments, of both the Greek and Hebrew, should've been translated widow instead as seen from 1 Corinthians 7 and the Hebrew word 'almanah.' Mary was never a virgin, just a widow. In fact, the 'Queen of Heaven' (what Catholics call Mary) was an Old Testament deity worshiped by Mass that God punished Israel for worshiping.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
20 ¶ Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

Again, whatever Jefferson's distaste for orthodox Christian institutions like the Catholic and Calvinist churches, he did donate to create the Bible Society of Virginia and did strongly express his belief in a Creator, emphasizing he was not an atheist.

As I stated elsewhere on this thread, he was a deist.

He was an Enlightenment intellectual and a scientist. He helped to create the secular republic that is defined in the Constitution.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-05-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
As far as I'm concerned Jefferson was in some ways a lot like me, he didn't think the Catholic church was Christian and didn't even think too highly of organized Christianity, but did think highly of the Bible and revere the Creator. I do not like Calvinism or Catholicism either, in part because both persecuted real Christians like the Anabaptists, killing innocent people for their beliefs contrary to Christianity. Where Jefferson and I diverge somewhat is that he refused to believe in the deity of Christ and didn't like to believe God intervened with miracles like the Bible said, so we do have our differences. However, Jefferson was certainly no atheist or secular as is clear from his legislation, in particular the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: