[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
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04-05-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I continue to request that some specific text that frees christians to eat pork or crayfish or other foods forbidden in the old testament be presented. I look for the very specific.

Remember this is the inerrant word of god. It is not opened to human interpretation. If such it would be the belief of man not the inerrant word of god.
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04-05-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it was a commandment from God, some is just preserved for historical detail.

Your point about the printing press though assumes several things though. (1) God had looked into the future to know about the printing press. (2) God would think such a press needed as opposed to using the writing then available on stone tablets and papyrus.

So now you're saying God can't see the future or God couldn't have thought of the printing press ? Besides which the Bible is hand written, so the point stands. A medical textbook could have been hand-written and would have been more useful than all the rubbish about sacrifices.

And if God was gonna let extraneous rubbish into his textbook for how to live your life, don'tcha think he could have inspired a later prophet to mark those sections as "irrelevant, but preserved for historical detail" so that millions of people wouldn't waste their lives trying to follow the oh-so-not-God's-idea commands ?

I repeat, what reason is there to believe any of it ?

I think God CAN see the future. I just don't think He inherently knows all it contains. I've explained this here:

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Problem_of...ll-knowing

The God of the Bible is presented as sabotaged by Satan planting evil in His good creation. (Matthew 13:28) He's presented as looking down to see what people do to figure out if they'll do good. (Psalms 14:2) So do I think God can know the future? Yes, although this may be in the sense of restricting what will happen by speaking it and setting the future along that course. But it appears equally clear from the Bible that God does not inherently know all the future or the Bible wouldn't make sense.

Actually, God did kind of inspire later prophets to specify what were His commands. That's why I quoted verses by Jesus, David, and Jeremiah showing God didn't approve of sacrifice and divorce - those prophets basically were marking passages out as not supported by God.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:00 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  I think God CAN see the future. I just don't think He inherently knows all it contains. I've explained this here:

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Problem_of...ll-knowing

The God of the Bible is presented as sabotaged by Satan planting evil in His good creation. (Matthew 13:28) He's presented as looking down to see what people do to figure out if they'll do good. (Psalms 14:2) So do I think God can know the future? Yes, although this may be in the sense of restricting what will happen by speaking it and setting the future along that course. But it appears equally clear from the Bible that God does not inherently know all the future or the Bible wouldn't make sense.

Actually, God did kind of inspire later prophets to specify what were His commands. That's why I quoted verses by Jesus, David, and Jeremiah showing God didn't approve of sacrifice and divorce - those prophets basically were marking passages out as not supported by God.

Sorry, I have a policy of not following links from random people who seem to be here solely to promote their websites.

And God is a lousy author by your logic. Any decent writer would be *clear* about what was bad and good,not leave it up to fallible interpretation. And you *still* fail to explain why if he had such concern for the Israelites' health, he didn't provide them with better medical knowledge and allowed Moses to insert extraneous crap into his book.

By the way your opinion is... you opinion. Millions of other Christians would definitely disagree with you, especially over good old Moses not being the bees knees. What reason will you give them that you're right and they're wrong?

Further questions:
1. What do you think of homosexuality ?
2. Do you *really* think that once yu're cold and dead and on the slab that the important part of you will be cavorting up in the sky with God's angels ?
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04-05-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:48 AM)JAH Wrote:  I continue to request that some specific text that frees christians to eat pork or crayfish or other foods forbidden in the old testament be presented. I look for the very specific.

Remember this is the inerrant word of god. It is not opened to human interpretation. If such it would be the belief of man not the inerrant word of god.

Actually, God used a divine vision to the Apostle Peter to show him that not only is it okay to eat foods considered unclean if God makes them clean, but that it's okay for non-Jews (Gentiles) to become Christians. This is in Acts 10-11. Jesus repeatedly said as well that it doesn't matter what foods one eats for it's not what goes into a person that makes them unclean but what comes out of them (their hearts).

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Matthew 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

As for human interpretation, the Bible does make clear God preserves scripture for future generations. (2 Timothy 3:16, Psalms 12:6) However, it calls noble those who question what it says so long as they do so with right hearts. (Acts 17:11) We are called to think through what the Bible says for ourselves. (2 Corinthians 11:13) We are called to study so we will properly interpret it.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You are clearly alluding to the following passage:

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

However, all it says is that the original prophecies were from God not man. It never says it's wrong to interpret the scriptures which is what you seem to think it says. You may be misunderstanding the passage because of the KJV's 16th century english translation choice of the word interpretation (the original Greek word translated into english as interpretation is 'epilusis').

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...lusis.html

The following is the interlinear, or original Greek text overlaying the KJV english:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing <ginosko> this <touto> first <proton>, that <hoti> no <ou> <pas> prophecy <propheteia> of the scripture <graphe> is <ginomai> of any private <idios> interpretation <epilusis>.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 10:00 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  I think God CAN see the future. I just don't think He inherently knows all it contains. I've explained this here:

http://www.bereawiki.com/wiki/Problem_of...ll-knowing

The God of the Bible is presented as sabotaged by Satan planting evil in His good creation. (Matthew 13:28) He's presented as looking down to see what people do to figure out if they'll do good. (Psalms 14:2) So do I think God can know the future? Yes, although this may be in the sense of restricting what will happen by speaking it and setting the future along that course. But it appears equally clear from the Bible that God does not inherently know all the future or the Bible wouldn't make sense.

Actually, God did kind of inspire later prophets to specify what were His commands. That's why I quoted verses by Jesus, David, and Jeremiah showing God didn't approve of sacrifice and divorce - those prophets basically were marking passages out as not supported by God.

Sorry, I have a policy of not following links from random people who seem to be here solely to promote their websites.

And God is a lousy author by your logic. Any decent writer would be *clear* about what was bad and good,not leave it up to fallible interpretation. And you *still* fail to explain why if he had such concern for the Israelites' health, he didn't provide them with better medical knowledge and allowed Moses to insert extraneous crap into his book.

By the way your opinion is... you opinion. Millions of other Christians would definitely disagree with you, especially over good old Moses not being the bees knees. What reason will you give them that you're right and they're wrong?

Further questions:
1. What do you think of homosexuality ?
2. Do you *really* think that once yu're cold and dead and on the slab that the important part of you will be cavorting up in the sky with God's angels ?

Whether you choose to read it or not is your business. As for God, He would expect those interested in the truth to figure things out and seek the truth, if they want to be lazy in determining what's right and wrong, and what His words are, He's not obligated to correct them. He'll judge them at the end and reward or punish accordingly, people have a responsibility to do what's right and seek it of their own decision.

I've already explained what I think of homosexuality ad nauseum at my site so I won't bother repeating the detail or providing a link you won't be interested in. Suffice it to say that all are guilty of death, including homosexuals, and while it's a wrong lifestyle action, so are a lot of other things. As Romans 3 says I'm no better than them. I say it's wrong because it is, that doesn't mean I hate them or think myself superior, just that it's wrong and something we should avoid.

Concerning your second point, yes.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:23 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  As for God, He would expect those interested in the truth to figure things out and seek the truth,

Why? Why play hide-and-seek with his oh-so-beloved creations and allow the truth about himself, upon which the fate of the immortal souls of his beloved creations depends, to be buried among thousands of other religions, all claiming to be true?

Quote:if they want to be lazy in determining what's right and wrong, and what His words are, he's not obligated to correct them. He'll judge them at the end and reward or punish accordingly, people have a responsibility to do what's right and seek it of their own decision.

So, is this how you will treat your own kids when they do not know something (something, that you've gone to great lengths to conceal within pages and pages of mindless drivel)?

And will you then punish them with eternal (or even temporary) torture, if they fail to see "your truth", that you've left them to grope for pretty much in the dark?

What if they have been born in a non-Xtian country and are never exposed to Xtianity? Do they still deserve to be "punished accordingly" for what is no "fault" (though I would call it blessing) of their own?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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04-05-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:31 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 10:23 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  As for God, He would expect those interested in the truth to figure things out and seek the truth,

Why? Why play hide-and-seek with his oh-so-beloved creations and allow the truth about himself, upon which the fate of the immortal souls of his beloved creations depends, to be buried among thousands of other religions, all claiming to be true?

Quote:if they want to be lazy in determining what's right and wrong, and what His words are, he's not obligated to correct them. He'll judge them at the end and reward or punish accordingly, people have a responsibility to do what's right and seek it of their own decision.

So, is this how you will treat your own kids when they do not know something (something, that you've gone to great lengths to conceal within pages and pages of mindless drivel)?

And will you then punish them with eternal (or even temporary) torture, if they fail to see "your truth", that you've left them to grope for pretty much in the dark?

What if they have been born in a non-Xtian country and are never exposed to Xtianity? Do they still deserve to be "punished accordingly" for what is no "fault" (though I would call it blessing) of their own?

God didn't play hide and seek, He sent prophets to the world and the nasty world killed them off and ultimately even killed His own Son. (Mark 12:1-9, Hebrews 11) God sent His servants to tell the world what to do and the world mistreated them, so I think He's got a pretty good excuse for being pissed off, frankly. That the Bible's been preserved so remarkably well (see e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls) is proof God was intervening to try and keep it safe despite all the best efforts of this Satan-run world to destroy God's Word.

It's my understanding God judges everyone differently by how much they knew about what was right and wrong, and what their choices were. Job wished he hadn't been born since such go to Sheol in peace with Abraham. (Job 3:11) The Bible speaks of a "lowest hell" (Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13) and says God will render to all according to their works. (Job 34:11, Proverbs 24:12, Romans 2:6)

It's my understanding there will be differences in punishment. How exactly that will work I'm not sure, but I'm confident those who knew less about God will be judged less harshly. Nonetheless, God can lead people to Him who seek righteousness like Abraham even if they are in an ungodly country, so such a hypothetical may not be that applicable anyway.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:47 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  God didn't play hide and seek, He sent prophets to the world and the nasty world killed them off and ultimately even killed His own Son. (Mark 12:1-9, Hebrews 11) God sent His servants to tell the world what to do and the world mistreated them, so I think He's got a pretty good excuse for being pissed off, frankly.

And who created this nasty world and those nasty vermin that had the gall to piss his vile, hateful self by killing his spawn?

And yes, if there was a god and he created us, he should have come forward and make himself known. A long time ago. Leaving no shadow of a doubt. And don't feed me some trite crap about searching and seeking. It doesn't explain anything other than make your god an even viler one than he already is (that is, if he existed. Which thankfully, he doesn't.)

Quote:It's my understanding God judges everyone differently by how much they knew about what was right and wrong, and what their choices were.
It's my understanding there will be differences in punishment. How exactly that will work I'm not sure, but I'm confident those who knew less about God will be judged less harshly. Nonetheless, God can lead people to Him who seek righteousness like Abraham even if they are in an ungodly country, so such a hypothetical may not be that applicable anyway.

It is, rather, your lack of understanding. Either way, your opinion only matters to yourself. Doesn't prove anything.

By the same token, I'm confident that once we die, everyone will fare the same. I.e., we'll all be dead and that will be it for everyone, no matter if they're a deluded, self-involved religionist who thinks the whole universe exists solely so that their precious ego will live for ever and ever and ever, or people who are honest and mature enough to accept that they are simply temporary specks of dust, who will one day vanish without a trace to make room for other temporary and incredibly beautiful in their transience specks of dust.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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04-05-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
The Bible specifically says that to whom much is given much will be required:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It seems pretty obvious this principle applies to judgment, this is the Biblical answer. There will be less punishment for those who knew less and more for those who knew more. As Hebrews 2:3 observed, the apostles themselves would never escape God's wrath if neglecting such great salvation given how much evidence and truth God had shown them. Jesus said the people of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba would actually rise up and condemn the generation He was in because of how much evidence they were rejecting from God. (Luke 11:31-32) There will be a greater condemnation to those who reject greater evidence, and less to those who have seen less evidence. By experiencing more and receiving more, one becomes more accountable before God.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 10:58 AM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  The Bible specifically says that to whom much is given much will be required:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It seems pretty obvious this principle applies to judgment, this is the Biblical answer. There will be less punishment for those who knew less and more for those who knew more. As Hebrews 2:3 observed, the apostles themselves would never escape God's wrath if neglecting such great salvation given how much evidence and truth God had shown them. Jesus said the people of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba would actually rise up and condemn the generation He was in because of how much evidence they were rejecting from God. (Luke 11:31-32) There will be a greater condemnation to those who reject greater evidence, and less to those who have seen less evidence. By experiencing more and receiving more, one becomes more accountable before God.

Earth to religionist: the Bible doesn't prove ANYTHING. It's a bunch of often hateful, often meaningless millenia-old words strung together.

My Kalevala says something else. And it's better written.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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