[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
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04-05-2013, 11:07 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 11:18 PM by Jzyehoshua.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 09:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 09:35 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  None of which disproves my points that (A) Jefferson personally donated to found the Bible Society of Virginia, (B) created the Jefferson Bible to evangelize Native Americans and said so, and (C ) stated repeatedly in both the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and Declaration of Independence that inalienable rights are given by a Creator whom he called "Lord," "holy author of our religion," and said had "Almighty power." If that's what deism is, then why do you think deism is different from Christianity?

Just to step back a moment here what's your point? I mean we can argue the religion of a man who's been dead 200 years all day but in the end it really doesn't prove anything. Jefferson was kind of all over the place with his beliefs but seemed to settle on a unitarian deism by the end of his life. However even if he was the pope himself the country was founded under secular principals of the enlightenment and firmly rejected an intrusion by an established church into public affairs.

My point is that Christians created separation of church and state and freedom of religion. If you go back even further to William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania where it began, it was especially blatant as Christianity. Penn created a bill of rights called a Charter of Privileges granting freedom of religion, right to property, and trial by jury roughly a century before the U.S. Constitution.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp

If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, he never intended separation of church and state to keep God out of government, indeed he began by arguing God was the basis for religious freedom to begin the bill! It would make no sense for Jefferson to try and stop religious expression in God while presenting his own belief in God in the bill.

Separation of church and state actually meant preventing state-run churches or religious institutions, which was a real danger at the time. You had the Catholic Church and Church of England in Europe running the monarchies to persecute protestant Christians, see e.g. the Albigensian Crusade and how the Catholic Crusades killed Christians. Even here in the U.S. individual colonies/states had their own state run churches, the Anglican Church for example ran Virginia and declared you had to be part of it to run for public office; it imprisoned Baptists who stated their beliefs.

Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists expressing a need for a "wall of separation" between religious institutions and government to protect the religious freedom of the Baptists who were writing to him. Some of the conversation went as follows:

"Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific... Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor... And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator."

-The Danbury Baptist Association

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem."

-Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802."

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 11:17 PM by Jzyehoshua.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
Furthermore, Jefferson as seen in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom specified the following as violations of God-given religious freedom:

-Judicial opinions restricting the faith of others because of supposition of ill tendency. (¶2, 9)
-Taxpayer funding of opinions one doesn't believe in. (¶3)
-Taxpayer funding of religious teachers one doesn't support. (¶4)
-Requiring a certain religious opinion to run for public office. (¶6-7, 12)
-Forcing people to attend religious worships, places, and ministries they don't want to attend. (¶12)
-Causing people to suffer in any way because of their religious opinions. (¶12)

Jefferson at one point argues "That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry." Jefferson never sought to stop religious freedom, but to protect it from state-run churches like the Anglican and Catholic churches which were seeking government power to persecute Christian denominations like the Baptists. Jefferson called Penn "the greatest lawgiver the world has produced" and clearly drew influence from Penn's earlier theocratic government, which had instituted separation of powers among judicial, executive, and legislative branches and a bill of rights granting freedom of religion a century earlier. Penn's government was in every way very similar to the later U.S., with a 2 house legislature almost exactly like today's House and Senate.

Anyway, separation of church and state meant not allowing government to prop up one religious denomination above others by preventing those of religious minorities from running for office, having to pay taxes to support what they disbelieve, and forcing them to attend the services of churches they feel don't properly obey the Bible. It never meant keeping religious expression out of government which frankly should be pretty obvious given how blatantly Jefferson, Madison, and Penn all expressed their own beliefs right in government legislation. Jefferson to the end of his life remained so proud of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom that it was one of only 3 accomplishments he wanted mentioned on his tombstone, the others being his creation of the Declaration of Independence and his founding of the University of Virginia.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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04-05-2013, 11:27 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Jefferson's words have been misconstrued over time, as have Madison's. Most people don't know when Jefferson talked of separation of church and state he was doing so in conversation with Baptists offering to defend their religious freedom. They are unaware he and Madison authored legislation stating their beliefs in a Creator giving rights to man, and that Madison even did so while unapologetically arguing against bills because they weren't Christian enough. Most people think Jefferson meant separation of church and state as keeping religious belief out of government and aren't aware Jefferson and Madison stated their beliefs in God as fact within government legislation on religious freedom.

These weren't secular founders, they were unafraid to state their belief in God as fact right in government legislation and the fact most people are unaware of the legislation they did this in is a travesty, a cover-up of detail those who want to violate the very religious freedom Jefferson and Madison espoused are perpetuating.

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04-05-2013, 11:44 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 11:07 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 09:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Just to step back a moment here what's your point? I mean we can argue the religion of a man who's been dead 200 years all day but in the end it really doesn't prove anything. Jefferson was kind of all over the place with his beliefs but seemed to settle on a unitarian deism by the end of his life. However even if he was the pope himself the country was founded under secular principals of the enlightenment and firmly rejected an intrusion by an established church into public affairs.

My point is that Christians created separation of church and state and freedom of religion. If you go back even further to William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania where it began, it was especially blatant as Christianity. Penn created a bill of rights called a Charter of Privileges granting freedom of religion, right to property, and trial by jury roughly a century before the U.S. Constitution.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp

If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, he never intended separation of church and state to keep God out of government, indeed he began by arguing God was the basis for religious freedom to begin the bill! It would make no sense for Jefferson to try and stop religious expression in God while presenting his own belief in God in the bill.

Separation of church and state actually meant preventing state-run churches or religious institutions, which was a real danger at the time. You had the Catholic Church and Church of England in Europe running the monarchies to persecute protestant Christians, see e.g. the Albigensian Crusade and how the Catholic Crusades killed Christians. Even here in the U.S. individual colonies/states had their own state run churches, the Anglican Church for example ran Virginia and declared you had to be part of it to run for public office; it imprisoned Baptists who stated their beliefs.

Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists expressing a need for a "wall of separation" between religious institutions and government to protect the religious freedom of the Baptists who were writing to him. Some of the conversation went as follows:

"Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific... Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor... And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator."

-The Danbury Baptist Association

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem."

-Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802."

Quote:Letter from the Danbury Baptists:

The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801.
To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association,

Neh,h Dodge }
Eph'm Robbins } The Committee
Stephen S. Nelson }

*A cite for this letter could read:

Letter of Oct. 7, 1801 from Danbury (CT) Baptist Assoc. to Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson Papers, Manuscript Division,
Library of Congress, Wash. D.C.
Quote:To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

That is the full text of the letters to which you have referred. As we can see upon full examination of both texts a specific question was asked and he responded to that question. It was not, however, a full examination of the entire clause in the first amendment and to derive such a conclusion is at best faulty and at worst dishonest.

As to Mr Jefferson's intentions with regards to God and the government it seems as though had he wanted to be clearer he had ample opportunity and choose to instead leave the interpretation as it is currently understood. This is also why the official motto of the United States is E Pluribus Unum- From many one and not In God we trust which was not added to american currency until the 1950's (in rather clear violation of the first amendment) as a response to the spread of anti-communist feelings at the time.

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04-05-2013, 11:59 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 11:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 11:07 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  My point is that Christians created separation of church and state and freedom of religion. If you go back even further to William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania where it began, it was especially blatant as Christianity. Penn created a bill of rights called a Charter of Privileges granting freedom of religion, right to property, and trial by jury roughly a century before the U.S. Constitution.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp

If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, he never intended separation of church and state to keep God out of government, indeed he began by arguing God was the basis for religious freedom to begin the bill! It would make no sense for Jefferson to try and stop religious expression in God while presenting his own belief in God in the bill.

Separation of church and state actually meant preventing state-run churches or religious institutions, which was a real danger at the time. You had the Catholic Church and Church of England in Europe running the monarchies to persecute protestant Christians, see e.g. the Albigensian Crusade and how the Catholic Crusades killed Christians. Even here in the U.S. individual colonies/states had their own state run churches, the Anglican Church for example ran Virginia and declared you had to be part of it to run for public office; it imprisoned Baptists who stated their beliefs.

Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists expressing a need for a "wall of separation" between religious institutions and government to protect the religious freedom of the Baptists who were writing to him. Some of the conversation went as follows:

"Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific... Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor... And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator."

-The Danbury Baptist Association

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem."

-Thomas Jefferson, January 1, 1802."

Quote:Letter from the Danbury Baptists:

The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801.
To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association,

Neh,h Dodge }
Eph'm Robbins } The Committee
Stephen S. Nelson }

*A cite for this letter could read:

Letter of Oct. 7, 1801 from Danbury (CT) Baptist Assoc. to Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson Papers, Manuscript Division,
Library of Congress, Wash. D.C.
Quote:To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

That is the full text of the letters to which you have referred. As we can see upon full examination of both texts a specific question was asked and he responded to that question. It was not, however, a full examination of the entire clause in the first amendment and to derive such a conclusion is at best faulty and at worst dishonest.

As to Mr Jefferson's intentions with regards to God and the government it seems as though had he wanted to be clearer he had ample opportunity and choose to instead leave the interpretation as it is currently understood. This is also why the official motto of the United States is E Pluribus Unum- From many one and not In God we trust which was not added to american currency until the 1950's (in rather clear violation of the first amendment) as a response to the spread of anti-communist feelings at the time.

I never said I was providing a full examination, I was just providing enough to prove my point that Jefferson was originally using the phrase separation of church and state to protect the religious freedom of Baptists and did so stating his own belief in God. I saw no need to quote out the entire letters, especially since some posters get angry if I quote or source too extensively. Maybe I bore them with too much information, I don't know. At any rate, I've quoted the letters in full at my website and provided a lot of additional detail there (which links I'm not citing to avoid angering certain people), I'm just providing the basics here.

Jefferson just provided basic amendments in the Bill of Rights, his primary legislation on religious freedom was always in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. He was very clear about his beliefs in that legislation and most people are unaware of this because it's been covered up by those who don't want others to know how strongly Christian his beliefs were. Congress started with prayer to God and officials were sworn in on the Bible from the earliest days of our government. While E Pluribus Unum and the Pledge of Allegiance were later additions, it doesn't change the fact that our founders and early country were very much Christian. Many major universities began as seminaries to teach pastors, see e.g. Harvard, Yale, etc.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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05-05-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 11:59 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 11:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That is the full text of the letters to which you have referred. As we can see upon full examination of both texts a specific question was asked and he responded to that question. It was not, however, a full examination of the entire clause in the first amendment and to derive such a conclusion is at best faulty and at worst dishonest.

As to Mr Jefferson's intentions with regards to God and the government it seems as though had he wanted to be clearer he had ample opportunity and choose to instead leave the interpretation as it is currently understood. This is also why the official motto of the United States is E Pluribus Unum- From many one and not In God we trust which was not added to american currency until the 1950's (in rather clear violation of the first amendment) as a response to the spread of anti-communist feelings at the time.

I never said I was providing a full examination, I was just providing enough to prove my point that Jefferson was originally using the phrase separation of church and state to protect the religious freedom of Baptists and did so stating his own belief in God. I saw no need to quote out the entire letters, especially since some posters get angry if I quote or source too extensively. Maybe I bore them with too much information, I don't know. At any rate, I've quoted the letters in full at my website and provided a lot of additional detail there (which links I'm not citing to avoid angering certain people), I'm just providing the basics here.

Jefferson just provided basic amendments in the Bill of Rights, his primary legislation on religious freedom was always in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. He was very clear about his beliefs in that legislation and most people are unaware of this because it's been covered up by those who don't want others to know how strongly Christian his beliefs were. Congress started with prayer to God and officials were sworn in on the Bible from the earliest days of our government. While E Pluribus Unum and the Pledge of Allegiance were later additions, it doesn't change the fact that our founders and early country were very much Christian. Many major universities began as seminaries to teach pastors, see e.g. Harvard, Yale, etc.

I find that most of the founders were at best nominal christians or deists much like politicians today, a nod towards the church to shore up votes. Washington is a great example of this, he held no membership to any church and while President refused to attend whenever the Eucharist was being performed. Again though it doesn't matter in the slightest what their private beliefs were since it was spelled out that there was a wall of separation between church and state. Regardless of the why, it does exist.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-05-2013, 12:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2013 12:12 AM by Jzyehoshua.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
All of our state constitutions reference God even if our federal constitution does not, and Madison who authored the federal Constitution also authored legislation on religious freedom invoking God and Christianity as the basis for religious freedom, the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, as previously quoted. Christianity was so widespread and universally accepted at the time of the founders in what was a deeply religious protestant Christian nation that they had no reason to think more clarity was needed. They just took it for granted virtually everyone accepted the truth of a Creator and Christianity which is why legislation by Jefferson and Madison stating this passed so unanimously. They would doubtless be shocked that many now think separation of church and state was meant to keep belief in Christianity out, and that their original intent has become so misconstrued. Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Washington; all were not shy about stating their belief in God. Thomas Paine was the only real exception I can think of, the others pretty much all accepted the truth of the Bible and Christianity.

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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05-05-2013, 12:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Hey JZH Smile Welcome back to TTA, where every nutter who comes past gets a hearing Dodgy

You have still failed to answer:
1. Why no homo ?
2. Who made you the Lord High Interpreter for Jehovah ? How come you get the keys to what's true and what's not in the Bible and no one else does? What makes you the specialest of special snowflakes ?
3. Why should we believe any of this crap ?

Nice little derail into arguing about Jefferson, since you saw you weren't making any headway with arguing directly for God you decided to go into Wall-o-Text mode.

Arguing atheists for ten years huh ? Rolleyes
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05-05-2013, 12:33 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have not read all of the intervening dialog but I continue to wonder where is my absolution to eat pork or crayfish. I am hungry and that is all that is in the pantry.

Stupid fucks are such no matter how well they phrase things.

And yes stupid fuck give me chapter and verse.
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05-05-2013, 12:59 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Oh wow, what is going on here?

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