[split] Ask a Theist! - Jzyehoshua Q&A
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05-05-2013, 09:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-05-2013 08:58 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 08:56 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Go do some research on Jefferson's life and then get back to us you clearly know nothing about it. His diest leanings are well known and well documented in his private correspondence.

You just propagate this false uneducated claim that Jefferson was a secular deist which obviously can't stand up to the facts; which is why you're unable to address them and try to distract from your losing argument.

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-...us-beliefs

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, ..."

In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[3], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

1823 April 11. (Jefferson to John Adams). "The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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05-05-2013, 09:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2013 10:06 PM by Jzyehoshua.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 09:37 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-05-2013 08:58 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  You just propagate this false uneducated claim that Jefferson was a secular deist which obviously can't stand up to the facts; which is why you're unable to address them and try to distract from your losing argument.

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-...us-beliefs

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, ..."

In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[3], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

1823 April 11. (Jefferson to John Adams). "The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Interesting quote, thanks for sharing! I do notice, however, in reading through the full letter, that Jefferson also admitted he believed in God however (which you yourself agree, admittedly).

"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit."

While Jefferson as seen from the letter was certainly no Christian, neither was he by any stretch of the imagination an atheist, but described himself as adoring the Creator of the world. He did not believe in the deity of Christ, per another quote in the letter.

"Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word {logos}. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.'"

New genetic research on Jefferson reveals he may actually have Jewish lineage which would explain his belief in the Bible and a Creator but not in Christianity. It also explains why he struggled so much with the New Testament and accepting Christianity, he acknowledged the God of Judaism but didn't accept the deity of Jesus. In a protestant Christian nation like the early United States, he may have thought it prudent to conceal his Jewish heritage for political reasons. It was actually Jefferson's own legislation, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, that helped give Jews the right to vote politically, as the state previously required one be a Christian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/20...ident.html

My website refuting alleged contradictions will be at BereaWiki.com.
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05-05-2013, 10:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes perfect sense to me. Jefferson had to keep his Jewish heritage hidden from the public in order to help give Jews the right to vote, which they acquired in 1789 in large part due to Jefferson's influence. Some states still kept Jews from holding public office much later however. Maryland for example did until 1824, North Carolina until 1868, and New Hampshire until 1877. A major reason the Jews got the right to vote was Jefferson's advocacy for religious freedom for all and his landmark legislation, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...05916.html

Jefferson perhaps chose to hide his religion afterwards fearing if it was discovered what his heritage was he would lose his political influence and his legislation on religious freedom might be questioned, with Jews discriminated against and the progress made lost. If Jefferson was Jewish he would have had many reasons to hide his heritage, including to help give other Jews the right to vote and hold office without having to hide their heritage like he was doing. It's possible other founders were likewise Jewish and hiding their heritage, and that this is what we call "Deism."

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05-05-2013, 10:26 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 10:22 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes perfect sense to me. Jefferson had to keep his Jewish heritage hidden from the public in order to help give Jews the right to vote, which they acquired in 1789 in large part due to Jefferson's influence. Some states still kept Jews from holding public office much later however. Maryland for example did until 1824, North Carolina until 1868, and New Hampshire until 1877. A major reason the Jews got the right to vote was Jefferson's advocacy for religious freedom for all and his landmark legislation, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...05916.html

Jefferson perhaps chose to hide his religion afterwards fearing if it was discovered what his heritage was he would lose his political influence and his legislation on religious freedom might be questioned, with Jews discriminated against and the progress made lost. If Jefferson was Jewish he would have had many reasons to hide his heritage, including to help give other Jews the right to vote and hold office without having to hide their heritage like he was doing. It's possible other founders were likewise Jewish and hiding their heritage, and that this is what we call "Deism."

So you are proposing a jewish conspiracy for why the United States has religious freedom. Thats lovely thanks for stopping by please see yourself to the door.

And thats the 2nd person I have ever ignored.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-05-2013, 10:27 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Jzyehosat, I will ask again and again if necessary. Quote me specific verse that allows me to eat what is in my refrigerator. The old testament is very specific about what I may not do. Your references to the new testament are vague and not so specific. I ask for help. You offer little.
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05-05-2013, 10:28 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 09:48 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 09:37 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  http://www.monticello.org/site/research-...us-beliefs

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, ..."

In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[3], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

1823 April 11. (Jefferson to John Adams). "The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Interesting quote, thanks for sharing! I do notice, however, in reading through the full letter, that Jefferson also admitted he believed in God however (which you yourself agree, admittedly).

"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit."

While Jefferson as seen from the letter was certainly no Christian, neither was he by any stretch of the imagination an atheist, but described himself as adoring the Creator of the world. He did not believe in the deity of Christ, per another quote in the letter.

"Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word {logos}. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.'"

New genetic research on Jefferson reveals he may actually have Jewish lineage which would explain his belief in the Bible and a Creator but not in Christianity. It also explains why he struggled so much with the New Testament and accepting Christianity, he acknowledged the God of Judaism but didn't accept the deity of Jesus. In a protestant Christian nation like the early United States, he may have thought it prudent to conceal his Jewish heritage for political reasons. It was actually Jefferson's own legislation, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, that helped give Jews the right to vote politically, as the state previously required one be a Christian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/20...ident.html

My response and quotes are intended to support Rev's assertion that Jefferson was, indeed, a Deist as opposed to a Christian as you propose. Do you even know what you're arguing?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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05-05-2013, 10:47 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 10:27 PM)JAH Wrote:  Jzyehosat, I will ask again and again if necessary. Quote me specific verse that allows me to eat what is in my refrigerator. The old testament is very specific about what I may not do. Your references to the new testament are vague and not so specific. I ask for help. You offer little.

I mainly know only of New Testament points showing all foods are eaten and that what matters is eating in good conscience believing it's right. (Romans 14:14,20,23) The closest thing I can think of from the Old Testament would be 1 Samuel 16:7 saying man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart, what matters to God is not the external but the internal; not the physical but the spiritual.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

As it states in Romans 14, it is fine to abide by the Law in not eating certain foods just as it is fine to eat all foods, the main thing is that we do so with a good conscience and not cause others to sin. As Romans 14:5 says, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Just from 1 Samuel 16:7 alone though, it's my understanding that God does not care about the physical but the spiritual and the heart. What matters is that we trust Him, care about Him and other people. As Jesus said, the two great commandments are loving God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and loving our neighbours as ourselves. All other commandments rest upon these two. (Matthew 22:37-40) If God does not look on the outward appearance, why would a specific food be wrong? I believe the main thing is to be sure in our hearts we are obeying God, one way or the other.

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05-05-2013, 10:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
The New Testament did recognize some of the Old Testament dietary restrictions as still applicable, interestingly, to not eat things strangled, offered to idols, or with the blood. (Acts 15:20,29; 21:25) Again just from 1 Samuel 16:7 though it's my understanding that God cares less about externalities than a right heart. If you're convicted that it's wrong though maybe you should get more food for your refrigerator. Smile

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05-05-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 10:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 09:48 PM)Jzyehoshua Wrote:  Interesting quote, thanks for sharing! I do notice, however, in reading through the full letter, that Jefferson also admitted he believed in God however (which you yourself agree, admittedly).

"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit."

While Jefferson as seen from the letter was certainly no Christian, neither was he by any stretch of the imagination an atheist, but described himself as adoring the Creator of the world. He did not believe in the deity of Christ, per another quote in the letter.

"Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word {logos}. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.'"

New genetic research on Jefferson reveals he may actually have Jewish lineage which would explain his belief in the Bible and a Creator but not in Christianity. It also explains why he struggled so much with the New Testament and accepting Christianity, he acknowledged the God of Judaism but didn't accept the deity of Jesus. In a protestant Christian nation like the early United States, he may have thought it prudent to conceal his Jewish heritage for political reasons. It was actually Jefferson's own legislation, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, that helped give Jews the right to vote politically, as the state previously required one be a Christian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/20...ident.html

My response and quotes are intended to support Rev's assertion that Jefferson was, indeed, a Deist as opposed to a Christian as you propose. Do you even know what you're arguing?

I suppose I can accept that Jefferson was a deist but I strongly oppose the concept that he was secular as he strongly believed in a Creator and refused to call himself an atheist. He also believed in the Bible as evidenced by his funding the Bible Society of Virginia. I think Jefferson struggled with the New Testament and concept of the supernatural, as do many Jewish deists. Given the struggles of the Jewish people, I suspect they are disinclined to believe God intervenes in the world, perhaps with some disappointment. Either way, Jefferson was a strong believer in a Creator and the Bible, whether a Christian or not, though he didn't want to believe parts of the Bible dealing with the supernatural.

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05-05-2013, 11:21 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-05-2013 10:27 PM)JAH Wrote:  Jzyehosat, I will ask again and again if necessary. Quote me specific verse that allows me to eat what is in my refrigerator. The old testament is very specific about what I may not do. Your references to the new testament are vague and not so specific. I ask for help. You offer little.

I actually just remembered some additional references Jesus brought up when addressing criticisms about his disciples' diet. Jesus mentioned in Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; and Luke 6:4 how when David was hungry he went into the temple and ate the shewbread which was lawful only for the priests to eat.

1 Samuel 21:6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.

That would be an Old Testament example of someone eating when in need where God allowed it. Again though, the main thing is to be convinced in your own mind one way or the other.

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