[split] Assalamo alaikum
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06-08-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Another one....really.

Don't we have enough people on here now who think they know all about us and want to tell us how fucked up we are?

This is out of control.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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06-08-2015, 04:59 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 03:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:44 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  Often the translations are called interpretation.

Just correcting facts: Translations are written, interpretations are oral.

I know what you meant, but the use of the words is incorrect.

I thought the meaning of his original sentence was that because the original language words may have several different meanings, the translator's act in selecting choosing among those meanings is interpretative (in that it emphasizes the meaning that is perceived by the translator). That sets the ground for further arguments that any weirdnesses or inconsistencies are solely the fault of translators misunderstanding the originals (or, blatant mistakes or contradictions = "interpretations" due to human error).

But then he tried to twist the dictionary definition into a pretzel and I realized he wasn't trying to make a fine distinction. It's a pity that he's hung up on defending his use of the word instead of googling the distinction, thanking the person who taught him something new, and then returning to his main point.
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06-08-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Like I said, I do understand what he meant by using the words as he did. However, I used to be a professional translator and interpreter and happen to know what I am talking about.

This was not meant as a topic of discussion, but as a footnote.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-08-2015, 06:22 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 04:51 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 04:13 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  The dictionary you quoted doesn't support what you say. And Dom is right, translations are written, interpretations are oral.

That's why translators translate books, and interpreters work in the European Parliament with microphones, or stay next to the person while using voice as their tool.
Sigh, how does the dictionary I posted not support what I said? You do know interpretor translates and not interpret? There are many such words in English language that are unusual.

The definition you posted says nothing in support of your statement. It lists other meanings of interpretation that have nothing to do with the job, or are vague at best.

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06-08-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Quote:I hope to have constructive talks with you guys, free from any narrow mindedness.

That was a lie.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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06-08-2015, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 09:32 PM by DLJ.)
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Thanks for the reply.

I think perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I'll try again.

(06-08-2015 03:12 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:45 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm not an ex-muslim but I have created a few.

Adam didn't exist ... it's a DNA thing. That's why they don't teach evolution in the schools here.

Adam didn't exist its a DNA thing? WHere are you taking this from? lol
Every muslim believes in adam and he did exist.

You are studying medicine so obviously you have a deep level understanding of biology.

The pre-bible creation stories (later documented in the Hebrew bible in Genesis) were written by people who did not have the knowledge that even 6-year-olds have today.

The christian bible subsumed the Hebrew folk-lore and the Quranic authors used the same literature afterwards. See also how they got the embryology bits wrong.

Now we know about the processes behind cell theory (evolution) we know that there was no first human... hence no Adam.

Your medical degree covers this, I'm sure.

Quote:Every muslim believes ...

On a side note ... I'm perceiving a small shift, locally, when talking to theistic friends (Jains, Buddhists, Muslims) ... they are now more often prone to say "We are taught to believe..." This is valid.

I know many apostates who still classify themselves as muslim because of tradition (e.g. they fast during Ramadan in the same way that many ex-christians binge during christmas ... because: tradition), so saying "every muslim believes ..." is not entirely accurate.

(06-08-2015 03:12 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:45 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Those mistranslations, ah yes ... that's been on my mind for a while ... given that no one speaks the language of the all original scrawlings, I find it incomprehensible that anyone accepts any translation / interpretation as authoritative. I would appreciate an explanation of that when you have time.
...

Original scrawlings? You mean hebrew. It is a very well understood language by linguists who study it.
...

Again, perhaps I wasn't being clear ... nope, I meant Arabic, not Hebrew.

Uthman (the third Caliph) had a stab at standardising the consonantal text (from the second hand reports of the words of the prophet) but variant traditions survived for centuries after (10th century CE) when canonisation (under Ibn Mujahid) attempeted to establish one system of consonants.

Even still, depending on whose account one reads, there are potential 14 different readings.

This is clever actually, because it allows apologists the option of claiming "you're not reading it right".

The thing is, when a muslim dogmatically asserts that the Quran is the word of god, one needs only to ask "Which Quran?" to undermine their certainty.

(06-08-2015 03:12 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:45 PM)DLJ Wrote:  ...
Quite right, the Quran.

I'm sure you know about the whole saga of how the early christians misinterpreted Isaiah 7:14 when searching for any kind of prophecy to substantiate their messianic claims. So "young woman" ("haalmah") became "virgin" ("bethulah").

OK, so they're human; humans make mistakes.

But gods don't, do they?

Sura 19: 16-21 and sura 3: 45-48 undeniably goes for the "virgin" option.

Oops!
...
Bible has been corrupted. Whatever it was translated from is corrupted as well. There are many common things between quran and bible. They are from same God. Quran exists in same form as before, bible was changed and edited. So whatever they translated or mistranslated, was not valid in the first place. Secondly, Mary is mentioned in multiple places as a virgin and not just there, you can't use just this one word at this one place as a lever for a much bigger statement.

LOL@ Oops!

Indeed, the bible (both Hebrew and christian) has evolved. Scholars (from all sides) have put heaps of effort into working out what changed and when.

The bible is a wonderful source for historians even when accepting that it was never intended as historicity but rather literature.
Note that no one use the Quran to study ancient history ... it is simply too modern.

The point is that when a mistranslation is noticed i.e. variants between older and newer versions or between Old and New Testaments, the latter translation is going to be questioned.

Any text that repeats the mistakes of the mistranslation can be dismissed off-hand.

I have this problem in class all the time even with modern best practices where one author has copied the mistakes of a previous author in the new 'definitive' text. Fortunately, we have some self-correcting mechanisms now.

I hope I have explained myself more comprehensively this time.

Cheers

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06-08-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Hello again. Big Grin

*Raises hand*

(06-08-2015 03:12 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  Adam didn't exist its a DNA thing? Where are you taking this from?
Every Muslim believes in Adam and he did exist....

Not wanting to jump onto anything but....

Pi(?) do you mean that there was a fellow named Adam?

Or are you saying that you believe there was a 'Definitive'/'Original' male (Human) which was then ascribed with that name?

Also... are you also now proposing to speak for "All Muslims" ?
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06-08-2015, 10:01 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 04:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Another one....really.

Don't we have enough people on here now who think they know all about us and want to tell us how fucked up we are?

This is out of control.

Nah. It's really kind of reassuring!

I mean, a man can be out travelling for six weeks, almost never tuning into the forum, and yet show back up and immediately see the same old song and dance - the same old sanctimonious exhibitionism that passes for "discussion" from the fundie quarter. Why, it's a rock of stability in a volatile world!

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06-08-2015, 11:46 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Note to morondog ...

(06-08-2015 04:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Another one....really.
...
This is out of control.

See? That's the polite way to criticise the Mods and Admins.


TongueTongueTongueTongueTongue

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06-08-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 11:46 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Note to morondog ...

(06-08-2015 04:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Another one....really.
...
This is out of control.

See? That's the polite way to criticise the Mods and Admins.


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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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