[split] Assalamo alaikum
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07-08-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 12:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:26 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Those people who kill in the name of religion do it BECAUSE of their religion. Stalin did not kill people BECAUSE he was an atheist. There's a difference there.

If someone don't understand it then trying to enlighten him is pointless. Stalin had his own religion - marxism-leninism. He killed in the name of this religion.

For literary reference: S.S. Montefiore Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar and Rafał Imos Faith of the Soviet Man. To be fair though Jorg Baberowski, author of Verbrannte Erde. Stalins Herrschaft der Gewalt claims it was hunger of power only.

That's awfully convenient isn't it? It's not a religion, it's an ideology. It's believes in total lack of religion and forcing others to leave religion. It is as much a religion as atheism.
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07-08-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 12:40 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:26 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Those people who kill in the name of religion do it BECAUSE of their religion. Stalin did not kill people BECAUSE he was an atheist. There's a difference there.

That's an oversimplification. Have you ever thought if the people killing in the name of religion actually just want power and religion is an excuse? There are several reports that suggest that top ISIS leaders are Baathists.

And Stalin DID kill because he was an atheist. He was violently opposed to any form of religion. If you ever find some time, you should read about it, its a very interesting time in history. If not for anything, at least do it for sake of knowledge.

I have no doubt that top ISIS leaders are not even religious. I'm certain they do it for power. But what is the only way to turn otherwise decent people into mass murderers? Extremists who kill for their god can't possibly be doing it for power since they often die in the process. I'm obviously not talking about leaders, but the thousands of people who follow them and honestly believe that what they are doing is good.

I probably know more about Stalin than you do, having had a significant number of communists in my family. Yes, he was an atheist and he probably didn't like people who were religious, but his actions were not led by atheism. If that was the case, you would have thousands of atheists following Stalin's example.

After all, there are many examples of religious people who killed dissidents. These tactics are not exclusive to atheists, thus they are not because of atheism.

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07-08-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 12:54 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:45 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Their views are far less harmful to society than the views of Islam. Enforcing conformity at the expense of rational thought and requiring that anybody who admits to thinking for himself be ostracized and probably killed is beneath contempt.

What harmful effect can they have? Leaving religion behind is not a harm, it is a liberation.

If they have went astray, they don't have to take others with them to hellfire. Rational thought leads to Allah, not away from Allah. Denying Allah after believing in Him is the biggest crime against humanity and it is the biggest lie one can speak of.

First you need to provide evidence that hellfire is a real thing or even that there is a god. Until you can there is no reason to believe any of it is more than a fairy tale created by the ignorant and the fearful to comfort themselves. Promoting an unsupported belief that condemns people for thinking for themselves is a far greater crime against humanity than simply questioning why any of the claims of religion should be believed.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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07-08-2015, 01:06 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 12:58 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:40 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  That's an oversimplification. Have you ever thought if the people killing in the name of religion actually just want power and religion is an excuse? There are several reports that suggest that top ISIS leaders are Baathists.

And Stalin DID kill because he was an atheist. He was violently opposed to any form of religion. If you ever find some time, you should read about it, its a very interesting time in history. If not for anything, at least do it for sake of knowledge.

I have no doubt that top ISIS leaders are not even religious. I'm certain they do it for power. But what is the only way to turn otherwise decent people into mass murderers? Extremists who kill for their god can't possibly be doing it for power since they often die in the process. I'm obviously not talking about leaders, but the thousands of people who follow them and honestly believe that what they are doing is good.

I probably know more about Stalin than you do, having had a significant number of communists in my family. Yes, he was an atheist and he probably didn't like people who were religious, but his actions were not led by atheism. If that was the case, you would have thousands of atheists following Stalin's example.

After all, there are many examples of religious people who killed dissidents. These tactics are not exclusive to atheists, thus they are not because of atheism.

You are contradicting yourself. At one point you are saying followers of ISIS are probably doing it because of religion since no one will give up their life for power (actually people can give up their lives for anything as long as they believe in it, but that's besides the point). On the other hand you are saying Stalin didn't do it because of atheism even though he clearly wanted religion to end and his millions of followers believed in their leader AND gave their life for it AND took millions of lives for it.
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07-08-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 12:56 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  If someone don't understand it then trying to enlighten him is pointless. Stalin had his own religion - marxism-leninism. He killed in the name of this religion.

For literary reference: S.S. Montefiore Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar and Rafał Imos Faith of the Soviet Man. To be fair though Jorg Baberowski, author of Verbrannte Erde. Stalins Herrschaft der Gewalt claims it was hunger of power only.

That's awfully convenient isn't it? It's not a religion, it's an ideology. It's believes in total lack of religion and forcing others to leave religion. It is as much a religion as atheism.

It's not religion cause you say so? Imos had good arguments why marxism-leninism could be called religion, you have none; Service wrote about starting of Lenin cult in his biography of Lenin, Pipes also written on the subject if I'm not mistaken in his Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime.

Marxism-leninism like other religions simply could not abide rival, it was not about atheism but about one cult wanting to have all faithfull under own wings. Though marxists-leninist indeed doesn't considered their religion as religion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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07-08-2015, 01:13 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 01:05 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:54 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  If they have went astray, they don't have to take others with them to hellfire. Rational thought leads to Allah, not away from Allah. Denying Allah after believing in Him is the biggest crime against humanity and it is the biggest lie one can speak of.

First you need to provide evidence that hellfire is a real thing or even that there is a god. Until you can there is no reason to believe any of it is more than a fairy tale created by the ignorant and the fearful to comfort themselves. Promoting an unsupported belief that condemns people for thinking for themselves is a far greater crime against humanity than simply questioning why any of the claims of religion should be believed.

What proof do you need that will make you believe in God?
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07-08-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 01:09 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:56 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  That's awfully convenient isn't it? It's not a religion, it's an ideology. It's believes in total lack of religion and forcing others to leave religion. It is as much a religion as atheism.

It's not religion cause you say so? Imos had good arguments why marxism-leninism could be called religion, you have none; Service wrote about starting of Lenin cult in his biography of Lenin, Pipes also written on the subject if I'm not mistaken in his Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime.

Marxism-leninism like other religions simply could not abide rival, it was not about atheism but about one cult wanting to have all faithfull under own wings. Though marxists-leninist indeed doesn't considered their religion as religion.

A religion that doesn't claim to be a religion even once and violently opposes ALL forms of religion. That's a first. It's very convenient how you are turning it into a religion. I have nothing to say to a person who makes something a religion just because it suits their stance.
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07-08-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 01:06 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:58 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I have no doubt that top ISIS leaders are not even religious. I'm certain they do it for power. But what is the only way to turn otherwise decent people into mass murderers? Extremists who kill for their god can't possibly be doing it for power since they often die in the process. I'm obviously not talking about leaders, but the thousands of people who follow them and honestly believe that what they are doing is good.

I probably know more about Stalin than you do, having had a significant number of communists in my family. Yes, he was an atheist and he probably didn't like people who were religious, but his actions were not led by atheism. If that was the case, you would have thousands of atheists following Stalin's example.

After all, there are many examples of religious people who killed dissidents. These tactics are not exclusive to atheists, thus they are not because of atheism.

You are contradicting yourself. At one point you are saying followers of ISIS are probably doing it because of religion since no one will give up their life for power (actually people can give up their lives for anything as long as they believe in it, but that's besides the point). On the other hand you are saying Stalin didn't do it because of atheism even though he clearly wanted religion to end and his millions of followers believed in their leader AND gave their life for it AND took millions of lives for it.

I never said that "no one will give up their life for power". I said it's illogical to think that someone would die for power, since power is something useful only in this world and not in the afterlife people expect they will have.

If atheism was the cause for Stalin's actions, you would see thousands of atheists following him. Followers of ISIS actually do it because of their religion because their actions are directly dictated by their holy book. Stalin's actions are not dictated by atheism. See the difference?

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07-08-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 01:13 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 01:05 PM)unfogged Wrote:  First you need to provide evidence that hellfire is a real thing or even that there is a god. Until you can there is no reason to believe any of it is more than a fairy tale created by the ignorant and the fearful to comfort themselves. Promoting an unsupported belief that condemns people for thinking for themselves is a far greater crime against humanity than simply questioning why any of the claims of religion should be believed.

What proof do you need that will make you believe in God?

Which god, and what are it's characteristics?
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07-08-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(07-08-2015 01:23 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 01:13 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  What proof do you need that will make you believe in God?

Which god, and what are it's characteristics?

I'd like a picture, too Tongue

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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