[split] Assalamo alaikum
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06-08-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Anyway, I'm looking forward to future revelations from our new friend.

I have chatted with local scholars here, where I live, and ascertained that various Hadith(s) can be ignored if they come from a false prophet ... but one should only ignore the bits that have errors (like those that talk about Adam as a real person) and not everything from the same prophet.

But when I go on to ask about the errors in the Quran itself ... deafening silence.

In particular, the bits copied from the Hebrew bible that we now know are wrong (e.g. the virgin birth mistranslation by the christians that was not fact-checked by the quranic authors).

Please don't scare off our new friend before satisfactory answers are forthcoming.

Cheers.

I saw in location thread that you live in a muslim majority country. So i guess you are an ex-Muslim.
I don't know which local scholars you talked to. You probably know as well as me how the science of hadith. I haven't heard about adam not being a real person before. Care to elaborate?
Most of the "errors" that you will propose will most certainly be mistranslations. Arabic words have several meanings, thats why they cannot be translated perfectly. Often the translations are called interpretation.
Virgin birth mistranslation? I advice you to avoid gimmicky articles which make preposterous claims based on single minor assertions. I can only defend Quran and not the bible.
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06-08-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:36 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  Let me be very and direct with you. I am not here to waste time. I hold time in extremely high value. I have plenty of things to do in limited time. So if i keep sensing this sense of mockery from you, i will simply ignore you as i did with Chas.

There seem to be plenty of people here with whom i think i can have a good chat and enjoy my time, so i don't have to bother with the likes of you.

Can't take the heat. Chickenshit. Drinking Beverage

Again, par for the course. They stick their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALALALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU"

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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06-08-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:36 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:22 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Truly? Consider define prophet.

Who wrote the qu'ran?

If humans were created, why would we have vestigial organs and bone formations, as well as 98% of our DNA turned off as we evolved through various forms over time? One should ponder these inconvenient facts.

Age of consent DOES vary, this is true. Marrying a child of 6yo, and raping her at 9yo would be considered by any civilized society as heinous. Do you not agree? Perhaps revelation did not rain down upon Muhammad's head for two reasons, god doesn't exist, and he wasn't a true prophet, although that very term is oxymoronic as there is no such thing as a true prophet. May allah be pleased.
Let me be very and direct with you. I am not here to waste time. I hold time in extremely high value. I have plenty of things to do in limited time. So if i keep sensing this sense of mockery from you, i will simply ignore you as i did with Chas.

There seem to be plenty of people here with whom i think i can have a good chat and enjoy my time, so i don't have to bother with the likes of you.

I understand. That emotion you feel is called fear. Having ones religion exposed for its falsehoods and misguided teachings can be a humbling experience. I wouldn't want to go through that either if I was here as a theist. it is better to ignore those who challenge your views. I agree with your philosophy of fear. I am sure allah would be pleased with your inability to articulate, substantiate and validate your faith. It reflects on your faith, and your belief that you can not, and will not engage me, I understand, fear is a strong emotion, continue to embrace it and your child rapist false "prophet". May allah be displeased.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
Pi, why don't you start a thread with a discussion topic?

You'll find a lot of diverse opinions here. Maybe garner insight to the "why's" behind our views. The way you phrased your generalizations makes that lack of insight glaringly obvious.


Even as a christian I was pro choice and pro gay rights. The "why" was more based off my preference for limited government, separation of church and state, and certainly a distaste for moral legislation. I've always found it intrusive that the government would have such a vested interest in what's going on behind closed doors with two consenting adults, or prevent a person from marrying who they want to spend their life with, what a person puts in their body or wants taken out of their body...not my place, not the government's place.



Praise FSM, sauce be upon him. This is what I think of the praise shalala whatever - it's utter nonsense and annoying as fuck, well not the FSM part, as he boiled for our souls. I mean whatever floats your boat dude, you wanna add that at the end of your posts, it's gonna get mocked.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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06-08-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:54 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Pi, why don't you start a thread with a discussion topic?

You'll find a lot of diverse opinions here. Maybe garner insight to the "why's" behind our views. The way you phrased your generalizations makes that lack of insight glaringly obvious.


Even as a christian I was pro choice and pro gay rights. The "why" was more based off my preference for limited government, separation of church and state, and certainly a distaste for moral legislation. I've always found it intrusive that the government would have such a vested interest in what's going on behind closed doors with two consenting adults, or prevent a person from marrying who they want to spend their life with, what a person puts in their body or wants taken out of their body...not my place, not the government's place.



Praise FSM, sauce be upon him. This is what I think of the praise shalala whatever - it's utter nonsense and annoying as fuck, well not the FSM part, as he boiled for our souls. I mean whatever floats your boat dude, you wanna add that at the end of your posts, it's gonna get mocked.
I will soon. Again i clarify, i never said that Atheism caused those beliefs. My point was that they share common set of beliefs and values, whatever the justification behind them.

Why is it annoying? I don't get annoyed by what others put in their posts/signatures. But i will move it to my signature now.
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06-08-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:49 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:36 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  Let me be very and direct with you. I am not here to waste time. I hold time in extremely high value. I have plenty of things to do in limited time. So if i keep sensing this sense of mockery from you, i will simply ignore you as i did with Chas.

There seem to be plenty of people here with whom i think i can have a good chat and enjoy my time, so i don't have to bother with the likes of you.

I understand. That emotion you feel is called fear. Having ones religion exposed for its falsehoods and misguided teachings can be a humbling experience. I wouldn't want to go through that either if I was here as a theist. it is better to ignore those who challenge your views. I agree with your philosophy of fear. I am sure allah would be pleased with your inability to articulate, substantiate and validate your faith. It reflects on your faith, and your belief that you can not, and will not engage me, I understand, fear is a strong emotion, continue to embrace it and your child rapist false "prophet". May allah be displeased.

Yep, nobody saw that shit coming. Drinking Beverage
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06-08-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 02:15 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 01:49 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I understand. That emotion you feel is called fear. Having ones religion exposed for its falsehoods and misguided teachings can be a humbling experience. I wouldn't want to go through that either if I was here as a theist. it is better to ignore those who challenge your views. I agree with your philosophy of fear. I am sure allah would be pleased with your inability to articulate, substantiate and validate your faith. It reflects on your faith, and your belief that you can not, and will not engage me, I understand, fear is a strong emotion, continue to embrace it and your child rapist false "prophet". May allah be displeased.

Yep, nobody saw that shit coming. Drinking Beverage

sigh, yup, someday an Islamist may come who is able to stand tall and answer the logical and valid questions about their prophet, without running away with their tail between their legs, as usual.

Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Don’t judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammad’s precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammad’s sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."

This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Qur’an were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha.

First, Consider a husband on trial for beating his wife. When he takes the stand, he explains, "Your Honor, many women are victims of spousal abuse, and they need someone to talk to. Out of the kindness of my heart, I decided to beat my wife, so that she would be able to comfort other women whose husbands beat them." Such an explanation would never be accepted (except, perhaps, in countries under Islamic rule, where the Qur’an guarantees a husband’s right to beat his wife). Besides, if Muhammad had outlawed sex with children instead of becoming a willing participant, little girls wouldn’t have to worry about sex, and they wouldn’t need to question Aisha.

Second, it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails.

Third, the Muslim claim that Aisha was a "precocious child" strains the evidence. Aisha herself reports that, when she was taken to Muhammad’s house, she was playing on a swing with her friends. She was also still playing with dolls. Based on the evidence, Aisha sounds like a normal little girl, not like a young adult. Besides, Muhammad didn’t marry her because she was precocious; he married her because he was dreaming about her.

Fourth, it is unlikely that God was using Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage, since the Qur’an itself seems to allow marriage to prepubescent girls. According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasn’t yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isn’t old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasn’t yet reached menses. And if the Qur’an allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice.

Fifth, Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammad’s numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammad’s polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies, Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammad’s sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammad’s behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammad’s morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammad’s moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammad’s violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we aren’t as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.

Finally, Muslim explanations for Muhammad’s behavior fail to take into account the dangers that accompany sex at a young age. Many Muslims claim that, as soon as a young girl gets her first period, she is ready to bear children. This "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality, aside from being disgusting, is completely false. A nine-year-old girl isn’t ready for sex or children, even if she reaches menses earlier than other little girls. Children that young are still growing; when they become pregnant, their bodies divert nutritional resources to the developing fetus, depriving the growing girls of much-needed vitamins and minerals. Further, complications often result from adolescent pregnancies, because the bodies of the young girls simply aren’t ready to give birth.

But no worries, allah's blessings be upon those who willfully rape children. Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 01:44 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  ...
I saw in location thread that you live in a muslim majority country. So i guess you are an ex-Muslim.
I don't know which local scholars you talked to. You probably know as well as me how the science of hadith. I haven't heard about adam not being a real person before. Care to elaborate?
Most of the "errors" that you will propose will most certainly be mistranslations. Arabic words have several meanings, thats why they cannot be translated perfectly. Often the translations are called interpretation.
...

I'm not an ex-muslim but I have created a few.

Adam didn't exist ... it's a DNA thing. That's why they don't teach evolution in the schools here.

Those mistranslations, ah yes ... that's been on my mind for a while ... given that no one speaks the language of the all original scrawlings, I find it incomprehensible that anyone accepts any translation / interpretation as authoritative. I would appreciate an explanation of that when you have time.

(06-08-2015 01:44 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  ...
Virgin birth mistranslation? I advice you to avoid gimmicky articles which make preposterous claims based on single minor assertions. I can only defend Quran and not the bible.

Quite right, the Quran.

I'm sure you know about the whole saga of how the early christians misinterpreted Isaiah 7:14 when searching for any kind of prophecy to substantiate their messianic claims. So "young woman" ("haalmah") became "virgin" ("bethulah").

OK, so they're human; humans make mistakes.

But gods don't, do they?

Sura 19: 16-21 and sura 3: 45-48 undeniably goes for the "virgin" option.

Oops!

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06-08-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 12:04 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  But the point that i am trying to get across, which is taking so much more effort than i thought it should is that, the percentages are solid and they will stand as you increase the sample size.

The percentages are NOT solid because only certain personality types are captured.

I would allow some validity to the polls IF it wasn't the case that closeted people are a whole different type of person than people who speak out and allow themselves to be counted.

The poll only captures gutsy people who confront the status quo openly. It says more about that type of person than it says about atheists.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-08-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: [split] Assalamo alaikum
(06-08-2015 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 12:04 PM)π¶∆ Wrote:  But the point that i am trying to get across, which is taking so much more effort than i thought it should is that, the percentages are solid and they will stand as you increase the sample size.

The percentages are NOT solid because only certain personality types are captured.

I would allow some validity to the polls IF it wasn't the case that closeted people are a whole different type of person than people who speak out and allow themselves to be counted.

The poll only captures gutsy people who confront the status quo openly. It says more about that type of person than it says about atheists.
Do you have anything to back your statement? Are closeted atheists against gay marriage? They vote for republicans? They are not pro-choice? What data have you used to conclude they are "a whole different type" of people. I am sorry, but burden of proof works both ways.
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