[split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
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28-01-2012, 08:25 PM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
I'll be glad to look through these replies, though I'm not sure why this had to be dealt with in a separate post. The OP asked for anyone's opinion. Nevertheless, whatever you'all are comfortable with is fine with me.
(28-01-2012 04:44 PM)Leela Wrote:  oh come one Egor, you come back after a break and first thing you do is insult a person that is having a really tough time already? Are you really that cold harded? Not much human left in you I guess...

I said nothing cold-hearted, and I didn't insult her in any way. She opened it up for discussion and that's what I'm doing with her, discussing it.


(28-01-2012 04:50 PM)NeonMoment Wrote:  I was an Atheist way before my cousin killed herself, I just still held out the little bit of Deism left in me, and really believed it was better to just respect and understand other points of view.

Your response doesn't invoke any sense of respect in me at all. If your 'god' planned my cousin to kill herself, then he can go to hell and suffer. There is no comfort in being the playthings of a deity that expects you to love him no matter what he takes from you or forces you to do.

I would prefer not to live in a celestial North Korea.

Well, since we're discussing this philosophically, in what manner would you have Him take her? I mean, we all die one way or another. I'm not sure one way is better than another. I'm not saying it's not painful or that your loss isn't real; what I'm saying is why use her death as a way to strengthen your atheism. Every living thing dies. Obviously, if we can treat mental illness and prevent a person from taking their own life, we would do that, just like we might give someone a coronary bypass or stent to prevent their death. Ultimately, of course, we fail, and people die.

As for being playthings of a deity, that's not really relevant is it? Either there is a Creator and we are His creation, or there isn't. My point is that if there is no God, then even though we can understand your pain and loss, what difference does death really make? If atheism is true, then we are only organisms without free will pushed around by external stimuli. If atheism is true, I'm not sure being alive is that much more relevant than being dead.

And let me say that I'm not trying to be rude or insulting. I'm just discussing these things with you, because apparently you have come in here some seven months after the fact to do exactly that, discuss these things. I'm not happy your family member died, and I wish someone could have intervened. Perhaps God would have allowed that intervention to succeed. I just wouldn't want it to destroy your spiritual potential.
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28-01-2012, 09:00 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
I’ve had a couple of friends throw in their cards, I don’t harbour any resentment against them.
It was their decision, as hard as it is to accept, and as angry as you are/I was at first it is a done thing and whatever the reasons where it was their choice to make.
But it takes time.
The whole religion thing can only make things worse with gods zero tolerance regardless of the pain the individual was in.

Being an atheist doesn’t preclude us from having feelings, just as being christian doesn’t prevent you from feeling the same.
If one of our family dies, from whatever means, we all would feel the loss regardless of our beliefs or lack of them.

And even if it is just a chemical trigger, what of it?
Your belief in some higher power and the comfort you get from that is just a neurological response of “I believe I would feel X if god, therefore I feel X”
It’s as real to you as our grief is to us.

Or do I have it wrong? Is being christian so de-humanising that you feel no pain when someone you love is lost?
Is your blind worship so all encompassing that no other emotions are tolerated as they might show cracks in the happy ignorance of faith?

NeonMoment, you have my deepest condolences for the pain of never knowing why they did what they did or if you could have helped.
It’s just a shit situation and I wish I could help.

Egor, get some empathy.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-01-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 08:25 PM)Egor Wrote:  If atheism is true, then we are only organisms without free will pushed around by external stimuli. If atheism is true, I'm not sure being alive is that much more relevant than being dead.

Nothing pisses me off more than this mindless argument.

If theism is true, how is there any more meaning to life than if it isn't? If love, happiness, and joy are meaningless when they are the emergent products of laws of nature, how do they have meaning when they are merely the product of a "soul?"

How is the origin of life relevant to its meaning?

Besides, the idea that my life is the extremely complex result of simple, elegant laws of nature fills me with much more wonder than just saying I'm a soul.
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28-01-2012, 09:08 PM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 06:02 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Just... no. That post is an affront to humanity ...

Blah, blah, blah.

The fact is atheism is not true, and that's my point. This person died on the day God chose to take them. Their life was complete, and there is no reason to let the death of a loved one alienate one from their Creator. We can sympathize with the loss the living experience, but every death must remind us that we do not belong to other people; we don't even belong to ourselves. We were created by God for God; we live out our lives the best we can and put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be transformed into what He was. When the final day comes--for whatever reason--then we go on to our next phase of existence.

There is pain in this life, and so very little happiness. Those whom we love pass away; all that we sought to gain we lose. Only those things that are eternal do we take with us, the love we have for others, the growth in Christ we have acheived. We put our faith in our Father's hands, because we are the creature and He is our Creator, and there is nothing else we can do. But there is a comfort in that.

We have only this recourse that we can pray to our Father and trust in Him that we may find some reasonable happiness in this life and eternal happiness with Him in the next life to come.

I'm sorry, but atheists have nothing whatsoever to say to those who have lost a loved one and are seeking spiritual comfort and truth. They can only commiserate in what they believe to be a meaningless and cold, chaotic, indifferent universe.
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28-01-2012, 09:15 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
Interesting, I don't find my universe to be cold and indifferent. I'm quite happy. I enjoy my life. I find it interesting that I'm so small in such a gigantic universe, but I don't feel any lesser for it. Sure, in the grand picture of how large the universe is, perhaps insignificant due to my lifespan compared to what exists out there, but I'm not cold.

Why is it you theists seem to think that we're all a bunch of depressed, emo people who hate life? On the contrary, I enjoy my life. It's good. I'm godless, I don't care. I feel free. I feel like a giant weight lifted off my shoulders when I realized I was living for me and also for my fellow man, not to please some man in the sky.

How is it I can have nothing to say? Empathy and altruism are human traits... not specific to a deity... I can tell someone, "I'm sorry." and "I understand where you are coming from." and offer empathy, compassion. Any human being can. Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do just because I don't live for your sky god?
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28-01-2012, 09:15 PM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:05 PM)Ben Wrote:  Besides, the idea that my life is the extremely complex result of simple, elegant laws of nature fills me with much more wonder than just saying I'm a soul.

I'm sorry? Who?

The laws of nature fill who with much more wonder...? If atheism is true, your feeling of wonder is worthless. It's nothing. It's an illusion. It's a reaction of matter. If atheism is true, there is no "you." looking from the outside at anything that has to do with the laws of nature. If atheism is true, you are merely a location in the universe that can be plotted on a graph--nothing more.

Fortunately, atheism is not true, so you're free to continue pontificating.
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28-01-2012, 09:42 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(28-01-2012 09:05 PM)Ben Wrote:  Besides, the idea that my life is the extremely complex result of simple, elegant laws of nature fills me with much more wonder than just saying I'm a soul.

I'm sorry? Who?

The laws of nature fill who with much more wonder...? If atheism is true, your feeling of wonder is worthless. It's nothing. It's an illusion. It's a reaction of matter. If atheism is true, there is no "you." looking from the outside at anything that has to do with the laws of nature. If atheism is true, you are merely a location in the universe that can be plotted on a graph--nothing more.

Fortunately, atheism is not true, so you're free to continue pontificating.

Feeling of wonder is worthless, an illusion, because there's no god? How does your god make your feelings worth anything? If there is no god, we're illusions? That is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard - it makes no logical or emotional sense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-01-2012, 10:14 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(28-01-2012 09:05 PM)Ben Wrote:  Besides, the idea that my life is the extremely complex result of simple, elegant laws of nature fills me with much more wonder than just saying I'm a soul.

I'm sorry? Who?

The laws of nature fill who with much more wonder...? If atheism is true, your feeling of wonder is worthless. It's nothing. It's an illusion. It's a reaction of matter. If atheism is true, there is no "you." looking from the outside at anything that has to do with the laws of nature. If atheism is true, you are merely a location in the universe that can be plotted on a graph--nothing more.

Fortunately, atheism is not true, so you're free to continue pontificating.

Demonstrate clearly with evidence to me how your theistic view gives any more meaning to life than mine.

It's that simple.
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28-01-2012, 11:32 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(28-01-2012 06:02 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Just... no. That post is an affront to humanity ...

Blah, blah, blah.

The fact is atheism is not true, and that's my point. This person died on the day God chose to take them. Their life was complete, and there is no reason to let the death of a loved one alienate one from their Creator. We can sympathize with the loss the living experience, but every death must remind us that we do not belong to other people; we don't even belong to ourselves. We were created by God for God; we live out our lives the best we can and put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be transformed into what He was. When the final day comes--for whatever reason--then we go on to our next phase of existence.

There is pain in this life, and so very little happiness. Those whom we love pass away; all that we sought to gain we lose. Only those things that are eternal do we take with us, the love we have for others, the growth in Christ we have acheived. We put our faith in our Father's hands, because we are the creature and He is our Creator, and there is nothing else we can do. But there is a comfort in that.

We have only this recourse that we can pray to our Father and trust in Him that we may find some reasonable happiness in this life and eternal happiness with Him in the next life to come.

I'm sorry, but atheists have nothing whatsoever to say to those who have lost a loved one and are seeking spiritual comfort and truth. They can only commiserate in what they believe to be a meaningless and cold, chaotic, indifferent universe.

Do you even know what atheism is? You keep saying "atheism isn't true" as if it's a positive statement on anything. It's not, it's a rejection of the idea that there is a god. That's it. There are gnostic and agnostic types of atheism, but atheism on its basic level is the rejection of the argument that there is a god. Atheism isn't a statement that can be judged true, it's a judgement that the statement "there is a god" is not necessarily true. You're just making a baseless claim that "god is true" by means of double-negative (the claim that "the statement that god exists" is false is not true).

Also, we have plenty to say. How does one deal with a loved one's death? Remember the good times that you had together, focus on the good and remember them. False platitudes that "they're in a better place" are meaningless, as they aren't anywhere - they are decomposing organisms, soon to be absorbed into the earth again.

Better without God, and happier too.
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29-01-2012, 01:32 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:15 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Interesting, I don't find my universe to be cold and indifferent. I'm quite happy. I enjoy my life. I find it interesting that I'm so small in such a gigantic universe, but I don't feel any lesser for it. Sure, in the grand picture of how large the universe is, perhaps insignificant due to my lifespan compared to what exists out there, but I'm not cold.

What are you talking about? How did we get on the subject of your happiness?

Quote:Why is it you theists seem to think that we're all a bunch of depressed, emo people who hate life? On the contrary, I enjoy my life. It's good. I'm godless, I don't care. I feel free. I feel like a giant weight lifted off my shoulders when I realized I was living for me and also for my fellow man, not to please some man in the sky.

Well of course you feel free: you have no purpose to find, you have no mandate to do good, you have no talent to fulfill, you don't have to do anything because you think it's all dust to dust. Of course you feel free.

Quote:How is it I can have nothing to say? Empathy and altruism are human traits... not specific to a deity... I can tell someone, "I'm sorry." and "I understand where you are coming from." and offer empathy, compassion. Any human being can.


Sure, any human being can, because God exists. It's not like your atheism erases God. You still live as if there is a God, you just refuse to acknowledge God. You are able to make a sympathetic spiritual connection with another human being, because you are a spiritual being. Your love is real; it's your atheism that isn't real. That's my point.

Quote:Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do just because I don't live for your sky god?

Why do you atheists always say that? I don't think God is up in the sky. I think God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. What does that have to do with the sky?
(28-01-2012 09:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Feeling of wonder is worthless, an illusion, because there's no god? How does your god make your feelings worth anything?

Because without God, then only strict Darwinistic evolution is possible in a completely chaotic universe. Now in truth, nothing is possible without God, but for the sake of argument, the only other theory that can be held if there is no God is strict chaos-based natural selection. That being the case, we are nothing but stimulated matter, our consciousness helps us evolve, but it is incorrect to think "we" are our consciousness. If atheism is true, "we" are merely mobile dirt.

Therefore, our feelings would be worthless.

Quote: If there is no god, we're illusions? That is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard - it makes no logical or emotional sense.

Good, because that's not what I said.
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