[split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
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29-01-2012, 01:40 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
Oh, I must have missed the part about there being irrefutable proof that there is a god. That must be why the above makes no sense. My bad.
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29-01-2012, 01:41 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 10:14 PM)Ben Wrote:  Demonstrate clearly with evidence to me how your theistic view gives any more meaning to life than mine.

It's that simple.

With evidence? What do you mean? We're talking about a philosophical topic. Am I supposed to pull something out of my pocket and show it to you and say, "See, this is why my view gives more meaning to life than your view."? That's ridiculous.

But I can tell you that anything that is not eternal is worthless. And in the blink of an eye, if you love someone, you will die and your love will disappear completely. It will be forgotten when they die, and it will be as if it never was--ever. If atheism is true.
(29-01-2012 01:40 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Oh, I must have missed the part about there being irrefutable proof that there is a god. That must be why the above makes no sense. My bad.

That's okay.
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29-01-2012, 01:52 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:15 PM)Egor Wrote:  The laws of nature fill who with much more wonder...? If atheism is true, your feeling of wonder is worthless. It's nothing. It's an illusion. It's a reaction of matter. If atheism is true, there is no "you." looking from the outside at anything that has to do with the laws of nature. If atheism is true, you are merely a location in the universe that can be plotted on a graph--nothing more.

Fortunately, atheism is not true, so you're free to continue pontificating.

So ego, you have acquired no manners, humility, or sense of your fellow human being. I understand your fear, but that is no reason to take it out on another who has come to others for comfort and to relax among fellow human beings. The reason NeonMoment posted this thread was to discuss her feelings for the loss of a loved one. This is a very sensitive issue and her emotional state could be quite fragile.

It is very obvious that you have no idea what the feelings of another human being are like. You tell people that they are worthless, that their feelings are worthless, you tell them that they are nothing. This pretense that you've said nothing insensitive, exhibits your extreme callousness and your disrespect for humanity. By the display of your actions here, you are unfeeling, you are uncaring, your behavior is shameful, you are a disgrace.

Exhibiting your sociopathic behavior is not a good idea. When you put yourself in a community, you represent your faith, your belief, your God. Because you spew your hatred, your senseless, mindless, jabbering, your callous, arrogant, and repugnant behavior; from you, this is all anyone can see of your faith, your belief, and your God.

You keep repeating "if atheism is true". You say you hate Atheism and want to fight it.
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or you may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
What is it exactly do you perceive Atheism to be?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-01-2012, 02:40 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(29-01-2012 01:32 AM)Egor Wrote:  Why do you atheists always say that? I don't think God is up in the sky. I think God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. What does that have to do with the sky?

Probably because we usually speak to Christians who believe the Bible is true, and as such that Jesus "ascended into the sky into heaven" (sorry, don't have the specific verses handy but I'm pretty certain it's there). You might not believe that's what happened, but many do - and if you do, where exactly was Jesus going? But of course you have your own version of God, just like every other theist, and your own version of the Bible, just like all Christians, and your own version of "Truth" - funny how none of it can ever fully agree with anyone else's version, or how this mighty God cannot communicate clearly and concisely with all of us servants and peons down here on Earth.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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29-01-2012, 02:49 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2012 03:17 AM by Jackrabbit.)
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
"Atheism is true" is a nonsensical statement,
Atheism is a rejection of a claim of a supernatural entity
ill still be sad when a close person to me dies and ill still share my grief with other close people
i will not trivialize their death or delude myself or others by saying something as stupid as
"they're in a better place with unicorns, chocolate, beer volcanos and strippers"
Being an atheist doesn't mean that some sort of emotional or ethereal part being removed from your brain
it just means that the claims of religion do not hold up to scrutiny.
All the emotions are still there, emotions are part of our species, part of the human condition
and needing Yahweh, Allah, Krishna or FSM to validate them is not only a stupid claim but a destructive one.
The concept of god trivializes death, sometimes there is no answer, sometimes shit happens
and it's that realization that makes you value the companionship of your loved ones even more
and grieve for their death more sincerely. Suggesting that life is just a waiting room for something grander
is not only an unfounded belief but an evil one too.
There's also more to life than worshipping Mars.. err Yahweh the Jewish God of War.
The things you say in your posts are just nonsensical, Claiming that anything that isnt eternal has no value.
I would contend that anything that is eternal has no value and both claims can't be proven or disproven.
At least when something is finite you value it more, If you're favourite chocolate bar was infinitely long
would you enjoy it? or would it be better if you buy a bar this week and look forward to the next time you enjoy it?

Even if emotions are nothing more than chemical and electrical pulses in the human brain
that doesn't diminish our capacity to enjoy life and pursue goals and talents, and help others
even if in the end we all die and planet earth will be long gone after a few billion years.
Our goals in life are what we make them, some people want to be famous or rich and have a luxurious life
and some people want to spend time helping others or discovering science. Like it or not
we are all on this boat together and even if there is a god that you're claiming (and we feel emotions because of him
regardless of if we believe or not) believing or disbelieving shouldn't have a bearing on what we do
because clearly he doesn't interfere so why bother in the first place, why do the religious want to make life hell
for everyone else by claiming that if they suffer here they'll get the good stuff after they die. (catholics, muslims, hindus, take ur pick)



and ask yourself this, if as you claim anything that isnt eternal has no value, then why does god care about our material world
if it's finite. why dont you find a clever way to off yourself (join the millitary) so you can get to the real prize at the end of the finish line
what is the meaning of anything you do here if this is just a waiting room till the real life? and why does god need people to carry out his willl
when he can easily just snap his fingers and poof, i would contend that people are the creators of god and that without people
who believe in him, his will(the will of religious leaders) wont be carried out because *spoiler alert* there is no jewish god of war judging us.

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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29-01-2012, 03:14 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
NeonMoment:
Welcome to the TTA boards, I'm glad that you decided to come here! It must be very difficult, especially when dealing with family who ignore the reality of the situation. I wish you and your family the best. You're free to talk with us and we'll help in whatever limited ways we can.

The rest:
I think our little Egor is a nihilist at heart, but clutches in terror to his religion. D'aawwww. Don't worry little buddy, it's not as bad as you think it is.

Whether you like the idea or not, you are simply matter. You are the stuff of the universe and nothing more. If that leaves you with a fear that you will be nothing afterward, then you'll need to learn to handle that fear.

Those of us who have addressed any fear that may have existed have come to realize that it's THIS day and THIS hour that matters to us. It's the short life that we have, and the experiences we have that will matter to us at the end of our lives. When we are gone then our consciousness is gone as well, sure. But that doesn't mean it was meaningless. If it means something to you while you're alive, then there was meaning. If you bring meaning to another, then that's even better. But if you want to be a nihilist and say it is all for naught and that it's just chemicals reacting to chemicals, then you're welcome to cry about it in your own little corner. You have a very one-sided view of life without god, and one that I think you're being intentionally dishonest about. You're very aware of your own consciousness and your life means something to you. God does not instill this meaning, your own consciousness does. And it is free to reject the meaning as well, as some unfortunately do.

Just an FYI- atheism != nihilism. We hold value in every life and reject the idea that the real value is in the eternal death that follows life. Let your chemicals stew on it for a little while, rather than rely on your god idea to stow you away in delusion.
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29-01-2012, 03:19 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(29-01-2012 01:52 AM)kim Wrote:  So ego, you have acquired no manners, humility, or sense of your fellow human being. I understand your fear, but that is no reason to take it out on another who has come to others for comfort and to relax among fellow human beings. The reason NeonMoment posted this thread was to discuss her feelings for the loss of a loved one. This is a very sensitive issue and her emotional state could be quite fragile.

She posted it in a public forum. She addressed me back when I replied to her, and I said nothing rude to her, whatsoever. She isn't complaining about anything, so you don't need to insert yourself as her hero.

Quote: It is very obvious that you have no idea what the feelings of another human being are like.


What?

Quote:You tell people that they are worthless, that their feelings are worthless, you tell them that they are nothing.

That's not what I said to anyone. I said if atheism is true, that's the state we are all in. But atheism is not true, so that is not the case.

Quote:This pretense that you've said nothing insensitive, exhibits your extreme callousness and your disrespect for humanity. By the display of your actions here, you are unfeeling, you are uncaring, your behavior is shameful, you are a disgrace.


Okay. So what about your insults right there? Now you are condeming me and in the same breath insulting me without any concern for my feelings. Or are you going to say that your bad behavior is my fault? You know, I've never come out and said anything personal against anyone, not Neon, not you, not anyone.

Quote:Exhibiting your sociopathic behavior is not a good idea. [quote]

When have I trampled on the rights of others, broken the law, or demonstrated a lack of remorse? If you're going to use the big words, you should be able to defend your position.

[quote]When you put yourself in a community, you represent your faith, your belief, your God. Because you spew your hatred, your senseless, mindless, jabbering, your callous, arrogant, and repugnant behavior; from you, this is all anyone can see of your faith, your belief, and your God.


Ah, I get it now: This is simply another atheist insult-fest. My experience is that atheists do this hoping I will respond to them. The good news for you is that right now I'm incredibly bored and have nothing to do for the next two hours.

Okay, and now here it comes, this part below: This is where, after having been intrusive and rude to get my attention, you try to impress me with your opinions. You're hoping I'll overlook your insults, and you believe I'm big enough to tolerate them and still listen to what you have to say. And you're right, I am.

So, let's see what you have to say.

Quote:You keep repeating "if atheism is true". You say you hate Atheism and want to fight it.
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or you may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
What is it exactly do you perceive Atheism to be?

There are three kinds of atheists:

The first is the person who says they believe in God but they have no faith at all and live as if God were no more real than the Tooth Fairy.

The second kind are the ones who have no belief in God at all and they don't give a hoot about religion or religious debates and live only for their professions or money, or hedonistic pleasures. You never hear from these atheists because they don't talk about religion and they don't care one way or the other about it. They are here to manipulate the world and get out of it whatever they can before they die. A fictitious example might be Al Pacino's character, Tony Montano, in the movie, Scarface.

Those first two are impossible to reach. They are damned and they will never turn unless God intervenes and turns them in some way, but I don't think God does, and I am not called to communicate with them.

The third kind of atheist is what you find mostly in these forums. These people want to believe in God, but something is in the way. What they want is for a theist to remove that obstacle. These atheists feel God, but they play Devil's advocate against the believers they encounter hoping to find the one who can show them the way home.

I feel very strongly for that third type. You could say that I love them, because I feel compelled to reach out and rescue them, to fight for their souls, and their being lost I consider partly my fault, my failing. They are the one sheep that Jesus talks about that the shepherd leaves the 99 others to go and find.

And you know what? I'm glad I've been doing this since 1994 so I was able to put up with your insults to get to this part of your post so I could answer it.
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29-01-2012, 03:20 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
As usual Jackrabbit, well-said!
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29-01-2012, 03:23 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
Oh yeah kineo ill be sending you a pm with the new transcript soon Smile

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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29-01-2012, 03:26 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(29-01-2012 02:40 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  Probably because we usually speak to Christians who believe the Bible is true, and as such that Jesus "ascended into the sky into heaven" (sorry, don't have the specific verses handy but I'm pretty certain it's there). You might not believe that's what happened, but many do - and if you do, where exactly was Jesus going? But of course you have your own version of God, just like every other theist, and your own version of the Bible, just like all Christians, and your own version of "Truth" - funny how none of it can ever fully agree with anyone else's version, or how this mighty God cannot communicate clearly and concisely with all of us servants and peons down here on Earth.

I think if we were to look at it, we would agree that God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. But that's another discussion.


Jackrabbit. I hope you don't want a response from me, or expect me to read what you wrote, because I will not respond to people who have mocking images of Jesus Christ as their avatar. Nothing personal, but it just ain't happening.
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