[split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
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30-01-2012, 11:03 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(30-01-2012 05:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  Your cousin was created by God--the one and only God--just like all the rest of us were. She is a creation of the Creator just like you and me.

And does anyone else see how Egor is starting to sound like our pal AbdelZ?
Once Egor learns where the = key is...we are all in trouble!

I guess those that blather on about the "one and only god" forgot the...hm...ENTIRE old testament. Even the God of Israel knows there was OTHER gods, he says so. So saying 'the one and only god' just makes him sound more like a bomb strapping terrorist than someone thats cracked the 1st page of the bible and read it.

Come to think of it, i think god has Tourrettes...as he displays an obvious TIC everytime he talks to moses. "I am the god who delivered you from..."

Kinda silly when you think about it. Its not like Moses had the other gods on his phone and God of Israel was beeping in with call waiting.
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30-01-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(30-01-2012 05:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  First off, you brought your cousin into this public discussion, not me. You wanted opinions; you asked for them.

She didn't ask for your opinion- she asked for advice from people who have experienced similar circumstances. The unsaid context there is that "similar experience" would require that the person who experienced it come from an atheist or agnostic or even loosely deistic point of view. Not from someone who comes from the point of view that's part of the original problem she explained; Christianity, your point of view or potentially any other hard-line religion. It seems clear to me that she came to discuss her pain and problem with like-minded people who could identify with her, not to be "witnessed" to or used as an example for your platform.

Perhaps her mistake was in saying she welcomes any and all discussion on the topic, without including a clause to prohibit ass-holery. Maybe she had faith in human compassion that people wouldn't be dicks. And then you come along. And now we're all ass holes because we're discussing this bullshit with you instead of following the original intended direction of the thread. But you're in the wrong place if you think that we're just going to let you have your jab at us. If you're in the US, then you have all of the rest of the public to speak your piece unmolested (assuming you're not Catholic). And if that's not enough for you, go to a Christian forum and talk about your crap there. Not here... you will not go unchallenged here.

If you want to discuss death philosophically then start your own damn thread about it. Don't piggy-back on someone's grief.

(30-01-2012 05:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  I don't think I've even mentioned your cousin. I've been talking about the implications of atheism related to dealing with death and the greif that surrounds it.


Bullshit...

Egor Wrote:So a close member of your family commits suicide and you become an atheist as a result, but now you are surprised you have such grief?

Your opening statement... She clearly wasn't "surprised" to feel grief. But that doesn't stop you from blaming her atheism for her grief.

Egor Wrote:we all belong to God and that He did not create any of us in vain, and that the moment of our death is as planned as the moment of our birth.

Egor Wrote:The order of our lives was in place at the moment of our birth, and all of it is in God's hands.

Egor Wrote:I'm not saying it's not painful or that your loss isn't real; what I'm saying is why use her death as a way to strengthen your atheism.

Egor Wrote:I truly hope your loss does not cause atheism to take permanent hold in you. I can't see anything good coming out of that.

Egor Wrote:I'm not happy your family member died, and I wish someone could have intervened. Perhaps God would have allowed that intervention to succeed. I just wouldn't want it to destroy your spiritual potential.

Clearly you have mentioned and used her cousin to move forward your point. Don't pretend that you haven't and that you've only walked on philosophical ground. No one is fooled.

But why stop there, maybe you could re-hash your point and try to bring it home?

Of course, you've already tried to do that!

Egor Wrote:But since you bring it up, I will say this. Your cousin was created by God--the one and only God--just like all the rest of us were. She is a creation of the Creator just like you and me. She died young, it sounds like, and that's a tragedy, but no one dies that God doesn't let die. If her life was completed, then there was no sense in having another day on earth, and that's how it will be for all of us when our time is up.

And since you bring her up and call her a barbie doll, I don't think it's too out of line to mention that suicide does not send people to hell. Only the rejection of Jesus Christ sends people to hell. I don't know her, so I can't comment on her afterlife status. But I hope she is doing well in her continued existence.

Your words may sound compassionate to you, but they are cold and do not carry the warmth to us that they might to you.

Egor Wrote:Try not to hold it against her.

This last quote was perhaps the most compassionate thing you've said. And I do echo that sentiment.
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30-01-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
Egor, I want to be candid with you for a moment - one Christian to another.

Do you really think your approach honors Christ? Do you think your condemnation, arrogance, and lack of tact exemplifies Jesus' compassion towards non-believers?

Your personality is real; you're an up-in-your-face type of guy. I get that. However, don't you think that maybe you need to change your approached in order to preserve the true message of Christ?

Look at Jesus. He was intolerant and abrasive towards the religious leaders but understanding and compassionate towards non-believers. Maybe you should take a page from His book.

Be compassionate and offer advice to those who don't know Christ. Show Christ through your example. Don't berate, degrade, and brow beat others for not believing and questioning; instead, love and embrace others and develop a relationship based on mutual respect. Your approach doesn't seem to work.

Again, my advice. Take it or leave it.

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30-01-2012, 11:32 AM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
I think that Jesus wouldn't be very fond of Egor (if he was real anyway) XD
Your not doing much to follow the example of the love thy neughbor, turn the other cheek hippy.

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30-01-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
I'm happy to discuss death on a philosophical level- but the original thread was split up because of your post's derailment. It still remains, at least in my mind, related to the original thread and the intent that comes with it.

I've seen plenty of people start a whole new thread because of what someone said in another thread. That would have been far less callous and a much more open area of discussion- where it wouldn't apply to any specific person and their very real non-philosophical grief.
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30-01-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 03:17 PM)Egor Wrote:  If atheism is true, all you have is your grief all by yourself. I mean think about it: If atheism is true, we are all just organisms responding to various stimuli. Your family member's suicide was a reaction to stimuli, your greif is a reaction to stimuli, and any empathy we show you is just our reacting to stimuli. There's no real consciousness and thus no real empathy--it's all just background noise to brain chemical reactions.

I'm sorry to say it, but if atheism is true, there is no resolution to greif and no particular answer to why people do what they do. After all, any stimuli must ultimately rests on chaotic happenstance.

How do you prove something? How do you prove if consciousness is real? I have chemicals that are proven to generate sentient thoughts. You have a book full of desert stories. The lack of a God or not does not invalidate the feelings. True it doesn't matter compared to the grand scheme of things. But it does matter to human beings. Our species. We have develped that empathy. Your God doesn't really give a damn ether when it comes to the workings of our lives. So a girls family member commits suicide and it doesn't really matter to you. It doesn't matter to anyone but those who have had contact with the now dead person. But it does matter to her friends and family. So why does everything really matter? Because we as people feel that it matters. From dust we came and unto dust we go. But we where real. We are real. So as long as I am alive I am human and as such I react on chemicals in my brain. As long as I live this world has relivance because I live in it. It didnt matter to me before or after my life because I did not and will never have a soul. But as long as I'm here I will fight to make it better for myself and my fellow human kind.

P.S. Thank you for being a completely insensetive ass because I have thought about that question for a long time. I have wondered why it all really matters and I have my answer now. Because I say it matters.

-Your average teenaged atheist.
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30-01-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(28-01-2012 09:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  The fact is atheism is not true,
How can a lack of belief in a god not be true?.
Do you have some evidence that there is a higher power? so far you haven't posted anything.

(28-01-2012 09:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'm sorry, but atheists have nothing whatsoever to say to those who have lost a loved one and are seeking spiritual comfort and truth. They can only commiserate in what they believe to be a meaningless and cold, chaotic, indifferent universe.

"I'm sorry for your loss" and meaning it, How about human empathy?, being there for the people that are grieving when they need someone the most?.

In your hate filled clouded mind, have you forgotten that we are still people?.

Everyone knows the pain of loosing a loved one. Believing that because we don't share your opinion that there is a god doesn't mean we have stopped being human.

Answer me this, How is it better saying to a grieving person "Forget the fact the deceased suffered a slow painful death (something god wanted as its part of its plan), They are with god now, so its all good" better than actually being there to support the bereaved?

Try doing something productive instead of hating for no reason and you might do some good in the world.

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30-01-2012, 10:31 PM
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
I think the point has come to just say "don't feed the troll."

We aren't getting anywhere anymore, and it's pointless to keep talking to someone like Egor. I suppose I can say I appreciate the 'sentiment' but I don't really, and I don't really consider it a 'sentiment...' So I guess I can say I appreciate the effort? But It was pretty obvious in my original post that theism was not the answer I needed.

So I welcome discussion about it, but not an effort to manipulate my grief to convert me.

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31-01-2012, 08:41 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(30-01-2012 10:31 PM)NeonMoment Wrote:  but not an effort to manipulate my grief to convert me.


After all i typed in my venting of anger....you said it best!

Well said!

D
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31-01-2012, 10:34 AM
 
RE: [split] Atheist Grieving - A tad heavy with... (The Christian argument)
(30-01-2012 11:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Egor, I want to be candid with you for a moment - one Christian to another.

Oh, so now I’m a Christian in your book. Shoot…
Hold on, let me get an emesis bag. Okay, shoot…

Quote:Do you really think your approach honors Christ?

Nope. I’m nowhere near hard enough. You need to read the Gospels and check out his approach to unbelievers.

Quote: Do you think your condemnation, arrogance, and lack of tact exemplifies Jesus' compassion towards non-believers?

I am what I am. I notice no one even listens to you. You are, in fact, a bitch for the atheists. You hold onto their belt loop and follow them around. They encounter you, and they just walk on by. Tell me, do you think your approach honors Christ our Lord? You actually have to remind people in your sig that you’re a Christian. No one has to guess with me.

In Saudi Arabia one time, I saw this little kid kneeling in the middle of a market street holding up two old socks; one in each hand. The kid was filthy and poor. He was trying to sell the socks to anyone who would buy. That’s what you’re like with your testimony to Christ. That’s your approach.

Christianity may eventually be replaced by scientist-priests, but not on my watch, not in my lifetime. Because after they’ve shoved aside all the ones who beg and sell Christ for any penny a person will give, they will still have to try to shove me aside. And, uh, I have a reputation for not being too easy to push around.

Quote:Your personality is real; you're an up-in-your-face type of guy. I get that. However, don't you think that maybe you need to change your approached in order to preserve the true message of Christ?

Just stay out of my way.

Quote:Look at Jesus. He was intolerant and abrasive towards the religious leaders but understanding and compassionate towards non-believers. Maybe you should take a page from His book.

Jesus basically introduced us to the concept of hell. He made it clear that if you don’t believe in him—you go to hell. Maybe you should take a page from his book. You tell these poor sons of bitches that they aren’t going to hell and that God loves them the way they are. You’re killing them. You won’t enter the kingdom and you don’t let anyone else enter either.

Quote:Be compassionate and offer advice to those who don't know Christ. Show Christ through your example. Don't berate, degrade, and brow beat others for not believing and questioning; instead, love and embrace others and develop a relationship based on mutual respect. Your approach doesn't seem to work.

Again, my advice. Take it or leave it.

I’ll leave it.
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