[split] Chippy vs the World
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-10-2013, 02:12 AM
[split] Chippy vs the World
(29-10-2013 02:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've had 20 years experience treating people with depression and anxiety. You've had a lot of really good advice here so far already. I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Recognise that it is also "biochemical" when you become unwell with anxiety. The western world is rife with subtle nutritional deficiencies and they're a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety. I strongly suggest you

1. take magnesium powder every night. Dissolve it in water. Most chemists sell it.
2. take zinc solution with it. Triple the recommended daily amount and do this for at least a month. (Forget zinc tablets or magnesium tablets, they're almost useless.)
3. Take a high dose multi vitamin B every day.
4. Take at least 5000 international units of vitamin D a day for a month.
5. eat lots of fresh fruit and fresh vegetables and avoid processed food. Take high doses of Omega threes
6. try to have a cardiovascular workout for at least half an hour every day.

Your brain will love you for it and you're anxiety and depression will improve dramatically.

Pseudoscience.

Yes, depression and anxiety are indeed biochemical but there is no evidence in the form of double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that taking doses of vitamins and minerals that are orders of magnitude above the RDA will improve anxiety and depression. Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

There is also no evidence that "nutritional deficiencies [are] a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety".

There is one Cochrane systematic review of nutritional supplementation in relation to postnatal depression and it finds no evidence for the efficiacy of nutritional supplementation in preventing or treating postnatal depression. See here.

Hasn't EBM reached Queensland yet?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-10-2013, 06:21 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 02:12 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(29-10-2013 02:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've had 20 years experience treating people with depression and anxiety. You've had a lot of really good advice here so far already. I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Recognise that it is also "biochemical" when you become unwell with anxiety. The western world is rife with subtle nutritional deficiencies and they're a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety. I strongly suggest you

1. take magnesium powder every night. Dissolve it in water. Most chemists sell it.
2. take zinc solution with it. Triple the recommended daily amount and do this for at least a month. (Forget zinc tablets or magnesium tablets, they're almost useless.)
3. Take a high dose multi vitamin B every day.
4. Take at least 5000 international units of vitamin D a day for a month.
5. eat lots of fresh fruit and fresh vegetables and avoid processed food. Take high doses of Omega threes
6. try to have a cardiovascular workout for at least half an hour every day.

Your brain will love you for it and you're anxiety and depression will improve dramatically.

Pseudoscience.

Yes, depression and anxiety are indeed biochemical but there is no evidence in the form of double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that taking doses of vitamins and minerals that are orders of magnitude above the RDA will improve anxiety and depression. Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

There is also no evidence that "nutritional deficiencies [are] a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety".

There is one Cochrane systematic review of nutritional supplementation in relation to postnatal depression and it finds no evidence for the efficiacy of nutritional supplementation in preventing or treating postnatal depression. See here.

Hasn't EBM reached Queensland yet?

Chipster, I wrote a reply to you that ended up being two thirds of a page and then I lost it. I guess that's because I'm a medical doctor and not a computer expert. I'm not going to spend another hour rewriting it.

Here's my bottom line to you. I have three medical degrees, six months experience working on a psychiatric ward, and 20 years experience helping the general public with anxiety and depression. As far as I'm aware you're not a medical doctor. You have your finger on the Google button and that's as much as you know. Shouldn't you be listening and asking questions rather than criticising someone about a topic which you obviously know very little?

If you or anyone else reading this would like to know more I'll be happy to keep posting.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
30-10-2013, 10:11 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here's my bottom line to you. I have three medical degrees, six months experience working on a psychiatric ward, and 20 years experience helping the general public with anxiety and depression.

That is a just an appeal to authority. What you lack is evidence for your claims and a multitude of anecdotes does not amount to evidence. Further, you are just GP that got his MB BS from a Tasmanian university. Tasmania does not have a good faculty of medicine.

Quote:As far as I'm aware you're not a medical doctor. You have your finger on the Google button and that's as much as you know.

No, I actually have much more than a Google button. I have likely read more journal papers on the neurobiology of depression than you have. I know as a matter of fact that there is no double-blind placebo-controlled study that demonstrates that mega-doses of vitamins and minerals can treat depression and anxiety. Furthermore, that idea conflicts with what is known about the etiology of MDD and anxiety.

That you are promoting "mega-vitamin therapy" and "orthomolecular medicine" distinguishes you as a quack. The CoS also promotes mega-vitamin therapy.

Quote:Shouldn't you be listening and asking questions rather than criticising someone about a topic which you obviously know very little?

You obviously know very little about MDD and anxiety. The space that you have spent trying to talk yourself up would have been spent on citations to peer-reviewed papers published in PubMed indexed journals if you had such evidence to present. As I have already stated, there is no such evidence and that is why you aren't presenting it.

Quote:If you or anyone else reading this would like to know more I'll be happy to keep posting.

Give me the citations that support you claims.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-10-2013, 10:34 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 10:11 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here's my bottom line to you. I have three medical degrees, six months experience working on a psychiatric ward, and 20 years experience helping the general public with anxiety and depression.

That is a just an appeal to authority. What you lack is evidence for your claims and a multitude of anecdotes does not amount to evidence. Further, you are just GP that got his MB BS from a Tasmanian university. Tasmania does not have a good faculty of medicine.

Quote:As far as I'm aware you're not a medical doctor. You have your finger on the Google button and that's as much as you know.

No, I actually have much more than a Google button. I have likely read more journal papers on the neurobiology of depression than you have. I know as a matter of fact that there is no double-blind placebo-controlled study that demonstrates that mega-doses of vitamins and minerals can treat depression and anxiety. Furthermore, that idea conflicts with what is known about the etiology of MDD and anxiety.

That you are promoting "mega-vitamin therapy" and "orthomolecular medicine" distinguishes you as a quack. The CoS also promotes mega-vitamin therapy.

Quote:Shouldn't you be listening and asking questions rather than criticising someone about a topic which you obviously know very little?

You obviously know very little about MDD and anxiety. The space that you have spent trying to talk yourself up would have been spent on citations to peer-reviewed papers published in PubMed indexed journals if you had such evidence to present. As I have already stated, there is no such evidence and that is why you aren't presenting it.

Quote:If you or anyone else reading this would like to know more I'll be happy to keep posting.

Give me the citations that support you claims.

Hmmm Internet jackass or trained and accredited MD. Tough choice here. Going to go with the guy that makes his living doing this.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
30-10-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Chipster, I wrote a reply to you that ended up being two thirds of a page and then I lost it. I guess that's because I'm a medical doctor and not a computer expert. I'm not going to spend another hour rewriting it.

You are a quack.

You are exemplary of what I have described, namely that even if the humans were disabused of theism other bunkum and pseudoscience would remain. There are many quacks that are just as earnest as you are but about some other pseudoscientific fom of treatment and they also have a fistful of anecdotes to share.

"Orthomolecular medicine" and "mega-vitamin therapy" are not consistent with evidence-based medical practice. There is absoluely no evidence that taking large doses of vitamins and minerals is more effective than plaecbo in treating MDD and anxiety. I don't doubt your conviction and sincerity but both depression and anxiety have been shown to respond well to placebo (and other nonspecific effects). You can see for yourself that the placebo arm in all clinical trials of antidepressants and anxiolytics shows some improvement. In the absence of a placebo arm and a no-treatment control there is no way to determine the effect size of any medical intervention. Even if you had 1000 anecdotes they are inadequate to the task of of demonstrating a significant effect size--a real therapeutic effect in addition to the placebo effect. Furthermore, there is no way to establish causality between giving patients mega-doses of vitamins and minerals and an improvement in their syndrome.

I can cite you as many papers as you have the time to read. I am familiar with most of the litarature concerning the treatment of MDD including the pharmacological, the psychotherapeutic, ECT, TMS and even the initial trials of ketamine IV. I have known about "mega-vitamin therapy" and "orthomolecular medicine" since the 1980s and I know that there is no high-quality evidence that they are effective for any condition. The view that I am expressing is the consensus view of psychiatrists and it is supoorted by the evidence of which I have first hand knowledge and I can reference for you.

Your most likely reply is that there is a big pharma conspiracy blah, blah, blah. I've heard it all before and it is bullshit. There is neither theorretical nor empirical evidence that dosing people with vitamins and minerals in excess of the RDA has any therapeutic benefit.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-10-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 10:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hmmm Internet jackass or trained and accredited MD. Tough choice here. Going to go with the guy that makes his living doing this.

You are a fool. There is absolutely no evidence that overdosing people on vitamins and minerals will alleviate their depression and anxiety and just because "a doctor" says so doesn't change that.

Further, Fulton isn't a psychiatrist, he is a general practitioner. The amount of training GPs have in mental health is trivial.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-10-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 10:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hmmm Internet jackass or trained and accredited MD. Tough choice here. Going to go with the guy that makes his living doing this.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/science_an..._practice/

http://www.sld.cu/galerias/pdf/sitios/re...cience.pdf

There is not one double-blind placebo-controlled study that demonstrates a significant effect size for vitamins and minerals in the treatment of depression. Not one.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-10-2013, 12:17 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here's my bottom line to you. I have three medical degrees, six months experience working on a psychiatric ward, and 20 years experience helping the general public with anxiety and depression.

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists Position Statement #24 (2004):

There is no scientific substantiation of the therapeutic efficacy of orthomolecular psychiatry in the treatment of psychiatric disorders. The College is therefore opposed to the use of orthomolecular practices other than as part of appropriately designed and ethically approved clinical trials.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-10-2013, 12:38 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 10:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hmmm Internet jackass or trained and accredited MD. Tough choice here. Going to go with the guy that makes his living doing this.

Abstract

Deficiencies of specific vitamins produce consistent symptoms of psychiatric disorder. Thiamine deficiency, which is common in alcoholism, can produce confusion and psychotic symptoms, in addition to neurological signs. Vitamin B12 and folate deficiency may contribute symptoms of disorientation, depression or psychosis; their measurement is a part of routine dementia work-ups. Pyridoxine deficiency results in seizures, although the effects of exogenously administered pyridoxine are not clearly understood in depression and anxiety — the disorders in which it is most frequently used clinically.

The use of vitamins has been most prominent in psychiatry in the treatment of schizophrenia, where large doses of nicotinic acid were initially given alone and later combined with other vitamins and minerals. Several theoretical models were described to support the use of vitamins in schizophrenia. These included: the parallels of schizophrenia to the psychiatric symptoms of pellagra; hypotheses of a defect in adrenaline metabolism; and the accumulation of psychotoxic substances which produce psychotic symptoms. Initially, positive results were reported over 30 years ago, but have not been replicated by thorough investigations. An extensive series of comprehensive placebo-controlled trials failed to show efficacy for any of the vitamin therapies tested.

Although clearly less effective than antipsychotic drug treatment, vitamin therapy is not without risks — adverse effects have been reported with nicotinic acid, pyridoxine and vitamin C. Although the possible role of vitamins has played an important part in the development of biological psychiatry, vitamin therapy is no longer extensively practised, and claims for its efficacy have not been supported by objective scientific evidence.

Petrie WM, Ban TA. Vitamins in psychiatry. Do they have a role? Drugs. 1985;30:58-65. PubMed
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-10-2013, 11:35 AM
RE: Help through Deconversion
(30-10-2013 06:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 02:12 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Pseudoscience.

Yes, depression and anxiety are indeed biochemical but there is no evidence in the form of double-blind placebo controlled clinical trials that taking doses of vitamins and minerals that are orders of magnitude above the RDA will improve anxiety and depression. Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

There is also no evidence that "nutritional deficiencies [are] a significant factor in nearly all cases of depression and anxiety".

There is one Cochrane systematic review of nutritional supplementation in relation to postnatal depression and it finds no evidence for the efficiacy of nutritional supplementation in preventing or treating postnatal depression. See here.

Hasn't EBM reached Queensland yet?

Chipster, I wrote a reply to you that ended up being two thirds of a page and then I lost it. I guess that's because I'm a medical doctor and not a computer expert. I'm not going to spend another hour rewriting it.

Here's my bottom line to you. I have three medical degrees, six months experience working on a psychiatric ward, and 20 years experience helping the general public with anxiety and depression. As far as I'm aware you're not a medical doctor. You have your finger on the Google button and that's as much as you know. Shouldn't you be listening and asking questions rather than criticising someone about a topic which you obviously know very little?

If you or anyone else reading this would like to know more I'll be happy to keep posting.

This is Chippy's M.O. I have an advanced degree in economics and all he has is Wikipedia.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: