[split] Chippy vs the World
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05-11-2013, 09:53 PM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 06:12 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 05:14 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I've been umming and ahhing for a while about joining this thread. I don't have much to say, but:

* I stand on the side of scepticism on vitamin and nutrient consumption in general. Although I acknowledge that it is likely some disorders and some individuals benefit from dietary supplements, what I hear through sceptical circles heavily populated by physicians is that most vitamin and mineral supplements either have no effect or a net negative on human health - being linked to higher incidences of cancer and the like.

* I am more persuaded by the opinion of peak bodies on this subject than by individual doctors, and more persuaded by doctors who move in sceptical circles than those who do not.

* Chippy, you have failed to consistently engage in manner that effectively communicates reliable information. You have spent more effort than necessary on ad hominem and although you have cited sources it hasn't been consistently clear either that those sources had something direct to say about the topic at hand or that those sources were known to be reliable. Part of the problem here is that the claims being made about zinc, magnesium and the like in this thread are fairly non-specific so I understand the difficulty in dragging up specific responses. I appreciate the knowledge and effort you have put into the thread, but as a matter of tone if nothing else I think you may have done more overall for your opposition's case than your own. How you debate is of course a matter for yourself, but from the perspective of an observer on the sideline it seemed that you took an approach that didn't sufficiently support your argument's credibility and relied mostly on ad hominem to reduce the credibility of your opponent's argument - who has after all the title of "Doctor" attached to his name, though not psychiatrist as you say.

* Mark, I appreciate also your knowledge and input in this discussion. I have no particular need right now for any medical treatment but I'll keep a sceptical open mind to the topic should it come up in the future with my own doctor in relation to specific diagnoses or maladies.

I appreciate your attempt to be impartial.

Given that people that know nothing of the topic--e.g. Snivel, Chlamydia Cathy, momsurroundedbyfat, aretardedmind etc.--have decided to "contribute" I have had littele option. I won't be deterred by noise and insults from the cheap seats. I was being asked for a "double-blind systematic review", I was being told that the American College of Gastroenterology doesn't exist and I made it up, that lactose is a monosaccharide etc. etc--FFS. The requests for citations because they came from a place of ignorance were so vague and ill-defined that I could only take a "shotgun" approach. You will see in my posts my repeated attempts to pin down what is being requested. Then when I provide a systematic review and a meta-analysis that associates dosing of A, C, E, zinc and selenium in excess of the RDA with increased mortality I am told they are not "double blind". I try and explain what blinding means and what a systematic review and meta-analysis are but no, knowledge just will not stick on people that are as stuipid and ignorant as Chlamydia Cathy. Then I have this dickhead Snivel that is trying to reverse the burden of proof and cluttering the thread with his idiocy and advertisement of ignorance.

If people that know nothing about this topic keep the fuck out of it and Fulton quits with his appeals to authority as the foundation of his position then I can spend my time and energy demonstrating that so-called "orthomolecular psychiatry" is pseudoscientific junk that has been tossed into the rubbish bin of bad medical ideas.

The insidious thing about Fulton is that he is passing off a fringe--and many say crackpot idea--as mainstream medicine. Orthomolecular psychiatry is NOT mainstream medicine. I don't know of even one college of psychiatry in the Anglophone world that endorses orthomolecular psychiatry. But rather than state that, Fulton passes his quackery off as conventional medicine coming from a putative authority figure. The willingness of idiots on this forum to blindly and uncritically embrace what they are being told because it is coming from a "doctor" is risible.

As I have posted I will provide a detailed rebuttal of Fulton's last post later, most likely tomorrow. I am too tired to read and search through references. Thank-you for the tincture of actual scepticism.

You're making a whole lot of uninformed assumptions about me by calling me a quack and by suggesting my medical degree is second class etc etc.

You imply that I prescribe vitamins and minerals instead of medication. This is a false assumption. I have been giving some general advice to anyone here who is interested. I have not suggested to anyone that they don't need their medication as prescribed by their own physician. I have made it clear that I commonly prescribe drugs for mental illness, often in high doses. Which bit of that don't you understand?

For your information, the Tasmanian medical school when I went through was highly regarded around Australia. We had a small number of students in each class which meant we had excellent hands-on experience in the real world in hospitals. My colleagues who went on to become specialists regularly outperformed their interstate colleagues in clinical assessments.

I agree with you that "orthomolecular medicine" is not mainstream medicine. That position is however changing as the years go by. Every year I go to the largest annual conference of naturopathy in Australia, and there are always hundreds of medically qualified doctors there.

The psychiatrists who make these statements are making them to warn people with mental illnesses that they should see a suitably qualified medical practitioner for treatment of their mental condition. I happen to agree with that; I think the person's physician should be their first port of call.

Now that is not to say that most naturopaths can't provide good care for their patients. Most naturopaths (but admittedly not all) are well enough trained to realise when someone needs to see a physician.

The (relatively few) doctors who make inflammatory comments about orthomolecular medicine are uninformed and behind the times. Anyone who claims that nutrition has nothing to do with mental health is living a blinkered existence. I challenge anyone reading this to Google zinc – magnesium– omega3's – B vitamins-amino acids and mental health and indulge themselves in millions of articles. I'm not saying all these commentators have fabulous evidence for their claims, but it would be ridiculous to simply dismiss them all.

It's easy to label all complimentary medicine as rubbish. Yet to do so is just ignorance. There is absolutely no biochemical reason why only a "drug" can affect brain function whereas a more "natural" substance can't. Some of the claims might be rubbish, but quite obviously a lot of them aren't.

The evidence for some complimentary medicines in mental health could be better. One reason for this is that nearly all the large double-blind randomised placebo-controlled trials are sponsored by drug companies, and quite naturally they're interested in pushing claims for their product. There's just not enough money spent on trials into so-called " natural" products.

What happens in the real world is this. Physicians like myself tentatively start experimenting in a safe way with simple supplements. Those who do usually see good, sometimes dramatic results, and as time goes by, become more confident with using so-called natural products. In the real world, we don't do double-blind and placebo controlled trials, because we don't see sufficient numbers, and we don't have the organisation to do it, or the time. We just use what works in practice. We do not use supplements instead of drugs, we use them in a complementary fashion. It's all about what works for the patient.

Sometimes some supplements don't work and we stop them. Exactly the same thing happens with drugs.

Psychiatrists, as a rule, don't experiment with complimentary medicine, at least not in Australia, because of the stigma associated with it. There's a lot of money backing up the pharmaceutical industry.

Physicians like myself are on the "coal face." We deal with real people who have real problems and we come up with real answers. There's a reason I use the argument from authority… I have it. Chipster doesn't. He doesn't know how much he doesn't know.
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05-11-2013, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 10:48 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You're making a whole lot of uninformed assumptions about me by calling me a quack and by suggesting my medical degree is second class etc etc.

I apologize for the entire forum for LittleChipOnALittleDick's slurs, Doc. You know that ain't us. ChipInHisDick don't learn how to at least be less of a prick if not civil he's gonna be cheesed. cf. CheapTrick.

(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He doesn't know how much he doesn't know.

It's worse than that, he really just don't give a shit. ... 'Cause he's like a prick and shit.

And now boys and girls, feels time to move the discussion to megadosing resveratrol and curcumin. They are far more interesting to Girly than zinc and magnesium. I been megadosing them for years now. Comments?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-11-2013, 11:29 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 11:33 PM by Chippy.)
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You're making a whole lot of uninformed assumptions about me by calling me a quack and by suggesting my medical degree is second class etc etc.

You are a quack and your medical degree is third class. In Tasmania you are gifted if you can read and write.

Quote:For your information, the Tasmanian medical school when I went through was highly regarded around Australia.

Bullshit.

Quote:I agree with you that "orthomolecular medicine" is not mainstream medicine.

Then you should state then when giving your bullshit advice. Don't pretend that your advice is endorsed by any medical college.

Quote:That position is however changing as the years go by. Every year I go to the largest annual conference of naturopathy in Australia, and there are always hundreds of medically qualified doctors there.

So it must be true.

Quote:The psychiatrists who make these statements are making them to warn people with mental illnesses that they should see a suitably qualified medical practitioner for treatment of their mental condition.

And because there is no evidence that supports "orthomolecular psychiatry".

Quote:Now that is not to say that most naturopaths can't provide good care for their patients. Most naturopaths (but admittedly not all) are well enough trained to realise when someone needs to see a physician.

Yes, of course, after they have used their Vega machine to rule out yeast allergy. Do you use a Vega machine also?

Quote:The (relatively few) doctors who make inflammatory comments about orthomolecular medicine are uninformed and behind the times.

Of course they are and you are on the cutting edge.

Quote:Anyone who claims that nutrition has nothing to do with mental health is living a blinkered existence. I challenge anyone reading this to Google zinc – magnesium– omega3's – B vitamins-amino acids and mental health and indulge themselves in millions of articles. I'm not saying all these commentators have fabulous evidence for their claims, but it would be ridiculous to simply dismiss them all.

Is that how you normally do your research?

Quote:It's easy to label all complimentary medicine as rubbish. Yet to do so is just ignorance. There is absolutely no biochemical reason why only a "drug" can affect brain function whereas a more "natural" substance can't. Some of the claims might be rubbish, but quite obviously a lot of them aren't.

Yes and only placebo-controlled double-blind test designs can identify the effective from the ineffective.

Quote:The evidence for some complimentary medicines in mental health could be better.

The word you want is "complementary", and evidence isn't an optional extra.

Quote:One reason for this is that nearly all the large double-blind randomised placebo-controlled trials are sponsored by drug companies, and quite naturally they're interested in pushing claims for their product. There's just not enough money spent on trials into so-called " natural" products.

Vitamin and mineral supplement makers are pharmaceutical manufacturers. F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group is one of the largest manufacturers of vitamin and mineral supplements in the world. The bulk vitamin and mineral powders that are purchased by companies such as Blackmores and Natures's Way come from the large pharmaceutical manufacturers such as F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group. F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group is happy for people to ingest 3g per day of ascorbic acid because they produce most of the world's ascorbic acid and they have no reason to sponsor a study which will show that ~200mg/day is sufficient.

There were adequately sized RCTs in the 1970's and 1980s and they failed to support the claims of the "orthomolecular psychiatrists" so they were discontinued.

Quote:What happens in the real world is this. Physicians like myself tentatively start experimenting in a safe way with simple supplements. Those who do usually see good, sometimes dramatic results, and as time goes by, become more confident with using so-called natural products.

Confirmation bias and anecdotage. Great stuff to base medical practice on.

Quote:In the real world, we don't do double-blind and placebo controlled trials,

Yeah those are for idiots. It's easier to just make stuff up. Fuck evidence, that is for losers.

Quote:Psychiatrists, as a rule, don't experiment with complimentary medicine, at least not in Australia,

Yes because they know better.

Quote:because of the stigma associated with it. There's a lot of money backing up the pharmaceutical industry.

There is no supplement industrys vs. pharmaceutical industry, they are the same thing. The raw powders come from the same industrial plants and they are sold by the same companies.

Quote:Physicians like myself are on the "coal face." We deal with real people who have real problems and we come up with real answers. There's a reason I use the argument from authority… I have it.

No, you have no authority on this matter because you have no evidence. Even if I were a psychiatrist with a Doctor of Medicine and a Doctor of Science you would be running the same bullshit line on me about the "real world". It is a matter of fact that all of the psychiatric colleges in the anglophone world are opposed to "orthomolecular psychiatry". Bunkum is bunkum regardless of who utters it.

Quote:Chipster doesn't. He doesn't know how much he doesn't know.

My position is consistent with the RANZCP, APA and RCP and that is sufficient. The peak psychiatrists' associations in Australia, New Zealand, USA and UK are more authoritative and credible than you.
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05-11-2013, 11:42 PM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
You're right, Chas, I can't find it here no more. Said they used to have it but don't no more. What the fuck's up with that. ... You gonna have to provide me a detailed description of the smell and taste and suggest cheeses close to it.

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As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-11-2013, 11:48 PM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 11:42 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You're right, Chas, I can't find it here no more. Said they used to have it but don't no more. What the fuck's up with that. ... You gonna have to provide me a detailed description of the smell and taste and suggest cheeses close to it.

[Image: oka.jpg]

The closest I've come is Raclet, but it's not very close - not stinky enough.

If I coordinate a trip to Montreal to see my sister, followed by a trip to Virginia to see my brother, I'll just bring you some. Yes

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06-11-2013, 01:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2013 02:02 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 10:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You're making a whole lot of uninformed assumptions about me by calling me a quack and by suggesting my medical degree is second class etc etc.

I apologize for the entire forum for LittleChipOnALittleDick's slurs, Doc. You know that ain't us. ChipInHisDick don't learn how to at least be less of a prick if not civil he's gonna be cheesed. cf. CheapTrick.

(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He doesn't know how much he doesn't know.

It's worse than that, he really just don't give a shit. ... 'Cause he's like a prick and shit.

And now boys and girls, feels time to move the discussion to megadosing resveratrol and curcumin. They are far more interesting to Girly than zinc and magnesium. I been megadosing them for years now. Comments?

Thanks for your nice words.

I hope there are a few people out there who can feel a bit better because of my suggestions.
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06-11-2013, 01:59 AM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
I'll mention something else that I've had a fair bit of success with in treating anxiety. It's a simple amino acid called L-theanine. Anyone who suffers from anxiety has nothing to lose by giving this a try...I would say about 50% of my anxious patients who try this get some benefit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine
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06-11-2013, 02:09 AM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(05-11-2013 11:29 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You're making a whole lot of uninformed assumptions about me by calling me a quack and by suggesting my medical degree is second class etc etc.

You are a quack and your medical degree is third class. In Tasmania you are gifted if you can read and write.

Quote:For your information, the Tasmanian medical school when I went through was highly regarded around Australia.

Bullshit.

Quote:I agree with you that "orthomolecular medicine" is not mainstream medicine.

Then you should state then when giving your bullshit advice. Don't pretend that your advice is endorsed by any medical college.

Quote:That position is however changing as the years go by. Every year I go to the largest annual conference of naturopathy in Australia, and there are always hundreds of medically qualified doctors there.

So it must be true.

Quote:The psychiatrists who make these statements are making them to warn people with mental illnesses that they should see a suitably qualified medical practitioner for treatment of their mental condition.

And because there is no evidence that supports "orthomolecular psychiatry".

Quote:Now that is not to say that most naturopaths can't provide good care for their patients. Most naturopaths (but admittedly not all) are well enough trained to realise when someone needs to see a physician.

Yes, of course, after they have used their Vega machine to rule out yeast allergy. Do you use a Vega machine also?

Quote:The (relatively few) doctors who make inflammatory comments about orthomolecular medicine are uninformed and behind the times.

Of course they are and you are on the cutting edge.

Quote:Anyone who claims that nutrition has nothing to do with mental health is living a blinkered existence. I challenge anyone reading this to Google zinc – magnesium– omega3's – B vitamins-amino acids and mental health and indulge themselves in millions of articles. I'm not saying all these commentators have fabulous evidence for their claims, but it would be ridiculous to simply dismiss them all.

Is that how you normally do your research?

Quote:It's easy to label all complimentary medicine as rubbish. Yet to do so is just ignorance. There is absolutely no biochemical reason why only a "drug" can affect brain function whereas a more "natural" substance can't. Some of the claims might be rubbish, but quite obviously a lot of them aren't.

Yes and only placebo-controlled double-blind test designs can identify the effective from the ineffective.

Quote:The evidence for some complimentary medicines in mental health could be better.

The word you want is "complementary", and evidence isn't an optional extra.

Quote:One reason for this is that nearly all the large double-blind randomised placebo-controlled trials are sponsored by drug companies, and quite naturally they're interested in pushing claims for their product. There's just not enough money spent on trials into so-called " natural" products.

Vitamin and mineral supplement makers are pharmaceutical manufacturers. F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group is one of the largest manufacturers of vitamin and mineral supplements in the world. The bulk vitamin and mineral powders that are purchased by companies such as Blackmores and Natures's Way come from the large pharmaceutical manufacturers such as F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group. F. Hoffmann-La Roche Group is happy for people to ingest 3g per day of ascorbic acid because they produce most of the world's ascorbic acid and they have no reason to sponsor a study which will show that ~200mg/day is sufficient.

There were adequately sized RCTs in the 1970's and 1980s and they failed to support the claims of the "orthomolecular psychiatrists" so they were discontinued.

Quote:What happens in the real world is this. Physicians like myself tentatively start experimenting in a safe way with simple supplements. Those who do usually see good, sometimes dramatic results, and as time goes by, become more confident with using so-called natural products.

Confirmation bias and anecdotage. Great stuff to base medical practice on.

Quote:In the real world, we don't do double-blind and placebo controlled trials,

Yeah those are for idiots. It's easier to just make stuff up. Fuck evidence, that is for losers.

Quote:Psychiatrists, as a rule, don't experiment with complimentary medicine, at least not in Australia,

Yes because they know better.

Quote:because of the stigma associated with it. There's a lot of money backing up the pharmaceutical industry.

There is no supplement industrys vs. pharmaceutical industry, they are the same thing. The raw powders come from the same industrial plants and they are sold by the same companies.

Quote:Physicians like myself are on the "coal face." We deal with real people who have real problems and we come up with real answers. There's a reason I use the argument from authority… I have it.

No, you have no authority on this matter because you have no evidence. Even if I were a psychiatrist with a Doctor of Medicine and a Doctor of Science you would be running the same bullshit line on me about the "real world". It is a matter of fact that all of the psychiatric colleges in the anglophone world are opposed to "orthomolecular psychiatry". Bunkum is bunkum regardless of who utters it.

Quote:Chipster doesn't. He doesn't know how much he doesn't know.

My position is consistent with the RANZCP, APA and RCP and that is sufficient. The peak psychiatrists' associations in Australia, New Zealand, USA and UK are more authoritative and credible than you.

Re "My position is consistent with the RANZCP, APA and RCP and that is sufficient"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCMzjJjuxQI
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06-11-2013, 08:34 AM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
This is my cheese altar.

[Image: westside+1.jpg]

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06-11-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: [split] Chippy vs the World
(06-11-2013 08:34 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  This is my cheese altar.

[Image: westside+1.jpg]

I am slowly getting into more and more cheese types. In the past I've vehemently disliked blue cheese. I had some recently and they we pretty good.

Your altar is a bit over my head.Weeping

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