[split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
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24-06-2014, 09:25 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2014 09:30 AM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:19 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Reference a dictionary for the definition of "bash".

Oh please. Sorry, I'm onto your method of endless word games and devolving into minutiae. You made a point. It was countered. If you want to play word games, hit me up on Words With Friends. My ID is ... on second thought, don't hit me up. No time for your word games.

Religion is proof that invisible men can obscure your vision.
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24-06-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:17 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 09:01 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Another example of using the bible to justify stereotyping. I can only assume, then, that you represent the effects of a Christian lifestyle. Confrontational, insensitive, antagonistic, addictive personality, and willing to judge an entire group of people based on a few lines of text written by someone who never traveled more than 100 miles from their birthplace.

The New Testament doesn't explicitly forbid cannibalism, so why don't you head down to the local morgue and make yourself a delicious dick-sandwich. You've earned it.

I said arguments exist against homosexuality NOT BASED on religious beliefs.

Maybe you missed that part.

I think we'll find that your arguments are actually against promiscuity and deviant behavior, not homosexuality. Associating a sexual preference with a deviant "lifestyle" is a poor attempt to justify your viewpoint. Please, show us your list of consequences that are exclusive to homosexuals. I'll need things backed by science, statistics, and social observations, not a bunch of BS from a pamphlet your pastor handed out.

Of course, this list cannot include items like the following, as heterosexuals are also capable of deviant lifestyles.

1. Disease;
2. Multiple partners;
3. Unexpected pregnancy;
4. Domestic abuse;
5. Etc, etc, etc;

Enjoy your sandwich.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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24-06-2014, 09:34 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:32 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 09:17 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I said arguments exist against homosexuality NOT BASED on religious beliefs.

Maybe you missed that part.

I think we'll find that your arguments are actually against promiscuity and deviant behavior, not homosexuality. Associating a sexual preference with a deviant "lifestyle" is a poor attempt to justify your viewpoint. Please, show us your list of consequences that are exclusive to homosexuals. I'll need things backed by science, statistics, and social observations, not a bunch of BS from a pamphlet your pastor handed out.

Of course, this list cannot include items like the following, as heterosexuals are also capable of deviant lifestyles.

1. Disease;
2. Multiple partners;
3. Unexpected pregnancy;
4. Domestic abuse;
5. Etc, etc, etc;

Enjoy your sandwich.

Never viewed myself as deviant before. I feel like such a rebel.
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24-06-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:17 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I said arguments exist against homosexuality NOT BASED on religious beliefs.

(24-06-2014 06:01 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  One can argue against homosexuality without even appealing to religious beliefs but by simply appealing to the effects such a lifestyle has on one who practices it.


OK so what effects are you referring to? And how do you know these detrimental effects are not instead caused by intolerance of people like you?

After all, what is essentially wrong with two people loving each other? The only fundamental difference between a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual one is the gender of the other partner. That is all.

Try disputing that and I shall have to ask whether you have personal experience of being in a homosexual relationship.
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24-06-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
Jeremy,

You wrote: The issue is whether or not homosexuality is a sin. If it is then it is whether you like it or not.

I see that you are back at it, stealing from Objectivism again.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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24-06-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:19 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Reference a dictionary for the definition of "bash".

bash
baSH/Submit
informal
verb
1.
Something which needs to happen to obnoxious theists' heads.
"bash an apologist with a newspaper"
synonyms: strike, hit, beat, thump, slap, smack, bang, knock, batter, pound, pummel
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24-06-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 06:01 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  A Christian that states that homosexuality is wrong is not bashing someone's lifestyle anymore than you are bashing someone's lifestyle when you say murder is wrong. The Christian who thinks this gives reasons for thinking so.

The issue is whether or not homosexuality is a sin. If it is then it is whether you like it or not. If it is not then it is not.

One can argue against homosexuality without even appealing to religious beliefs but by simply appealing to the effects such a lifestyle has on one who practices it.
People who conveniently ignore or don't want to know the facts and then say homosexuality is wrong ARE bashing because it's willful, baseless, and founded on nothing but their own personal self-centered dislike of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is as natural for homosexuals as heterosexuality is for heterosexuals. You only need to look at nature and the huge numbers of species that also exhibit homosexual behaviors in order to understand this.

Therefore, if your god exists, then your god CREATES homosexuals. And therefore it's not wrong unless you want to accuse your god of doing something wrong by creating them. Consider

If your god does not exist (and it doesn't), there is no reason you can come up with to justify labeling homosexuality as immoral. "Effects of the lifestyle" you say? You mean like the transmission of diseases such as AIDS? Do you also label heterosexuality as immoral for the same reason? You do know that AIDS can be transmitted that way too right, as well as all the varieties of venereal diseases? There is nothing you can find "wrong" with homosexuality that you won't also find yourself hypocritically labeling as acceptable with heterosexuality.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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24-06-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 06:08 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Homosexuality is condemned in BOTH testaments so your point is moot.
Reason right there to reject BOTH. Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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24-06-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
(24-06-2014 09:34 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Never viewed myself as deviant before. I feel like such a rebel.

Glad I could open your eyes Tongue

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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24-06-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: [split] Coming Out And Ready To Crawl Back In.
Let's look at this common assertion:

There are non-religious arguments against homosexuality.


Yeah, there are. What are they?

A. It requires being deceitful.

Yes, but the deceit is imposed by the cultural bigotry that can't stomach people enjoying themselves in ways others wouldn't enjoy. Homosexuality itself is not deceitful. To accuse homosexuality of deceit is the same as accusing Christianity of intrinsic deceitfulness when a Christian finds himself living among Muslims and has to conceal his faith to keep from having his head severed.


B. It can't make babies.

Yes, but many sexual practices can't make babies. Should the blowjob be prohibited? That homosexuality can't make babies is very probably a virtue these days when population growth threatens genuine peril.

But more important, how many times is sex had for the purpose of making a baby? 1%? 3%? Sex is fundamentally a recreational activity, only rarely indulged to make babies. It's high time we acknowledge that fundamental reality about ourselves.


C. Kids need parents of both sexes to grow up adequately human.

Hah. So speaks a cohort of humanity with a colossal divorce rate. That contention has been resoundingly debunked by study on study. There are some studies that even show evidence children of homosexual parenting MORE likely to be well adjusted. Bury that objection: it's a malicious slander.


D. It promotes the spread of disease.

Yes, sex does have that problem. ALL sex has that problem, it isn't limited to homosexuality.


E. It promotes promiscuity and extra-marital sex.

Hold on. That it promotes extra-marital sex, like the deceit argument, is the result of cultural imposition, not homosexuality itself. Anyway the gays themselves are pushing to legalize gay marriage; that argument is about to vanish.

The promiscuity aspect is a natural artifact of not being able to marry. Absent marriage, promiscuity has nothing to restrain it.

But there's no evidence heterosexual promiscuity is seriously regarded as a problem. Adultery is not against the law. The obsession with virginity is exclusively imposed on females; the male virgin is culturally scorned. Of all the sexual hypocracies promiscuity is the most flagrant.


Finally, F. It's dirty and disgusting.

Yes, sex is. ALL sex. There is not a single homosexual practice that is not also practiced by heterosexuals with equally abundant zeal.

If homosexuality has any kind of a problem at all, it's that it lacks the full repertoire. But the repertoire is thankfully expansively diverse; missing a few specific erotic acts out of many doesn't significantly impair it. It's like going to a movie theater that doesn't have one or two types of candy for sale, but the refreshment stand is so well stocked it doesn't matter.


I can't think of any others, but even these, while not obviously religious, have their ROOTS in religion. Absent religion, some of these would never have become objections in the first place.
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