[split] Conflicted
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16-03-2014, 08:40 PM
Rainbow RE: [split] Conflicted
(16-03-2014 08:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Where that post needed to go is, how do we deal with the way things are, being as most people are such dumbfucks, and what kind of good advice and support can we give to the OP?
I'm not really qualified to offer him advice on the topic. Others had offered some, I couldn't add value to what they had already said other than to say what I did.

There is no requirement on him to "come out" as he has no obligation to disclose his sexuality to anyone.

I would think that living your life to please your parents isn't much of a life.
So in a sense I guess the question is not "if" but "when".
Does he wait until he has moved out (if he is still living with parents)?
Does he wait until they have put him through university?
Does he wait until they have died (he might be 80 when that happens)

They might already even know or suspect it, or maybe not.
Maybe he could seek out other people's experiences on "coming out"?
but ultimately earmuffs is the only one that will know the answer.

But that's not much support from me is it?
tap him on the back (at arms length), say "there, there" (in an uncomfortably awkward voice) and then tell him other people might have some advice for him.
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16-03-2014, 09:14 PM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(16-03-2014 08:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Maybe he could seek out other people's experiences on "coming out"?
but ultimately earmuffs is the only one that will know the answer.

Maybe he could reach out to friends for advice on how to deal with things as they are. Maybe that's all that he was trying to do. Maybe that's the whole point behind the support section.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-03-2014, 09:28 PM
RE: [split] Conflicted
As a newbie to the site, I read through the thread, objectively.

I'll just say that--Sometimes, less is more. lol I understood the point you were making Stevil, but you being straight, have never had to deal (and never will) with such a situation. You can't genuinely compare it to your own life. Sometimes, we have to experience something first hand to really understand how another person is feeling about a particular situation.

I have a feeling you meant well, though. :-)

The beauty of the heart, is the lasting beauty. - Rumi Heart
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16-03-2014, 09:30 PM
RE: [split] Conflicted
Bowing
(16-03-2014 09:14 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(16-03-2014 08:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Maybe he could seek out other people's experiences on "coming out"?
but ultimately earmuffs is the only one that will know the answer.

Maybe he could reach out to friends for advice on how to deal with things as they are. Maybe that's all that he was trying to do. Maybe that's the whole point behind the support section.

So much this.

The beauty of the heart, is the lasting beauty. - Rumi Heart
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16-03-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(16-03-2014 09:28 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I understood the point you were making Stevil, but you being straight, have never had to deal (and never will) with such a situation. You can't genuinely compare it to your own life. Sometimes, we have to experience something first hand to really understand how another person is feeling about a particular situation.
I never said I understood his position, nor did i compare it to my own life.

All I said was that I didn't come out and tell people about my sexuality and I didn't think that sexuality was "public domain to be discussed, debated, analysed and judged"

and I followed that up with a question that I had "Why should your being gay require an announcement?"

I really struggle to see what some people have issue with in my message.
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16-03-2014, 11:22 PM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(16-03-2014 03:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-03-2014 03:11 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So you're now comparing homosexual acceptance with heterosexuality? Yeah straight people are disowned all the time, or beat up because of their straightness. It doesn't matter...If you can't be supportive in the personal issues and support section then go away.
WTF!

I haven't addressed any acceptance issues.
My post is as to questioning why there would be a need to publicise one's sexuality.

Please address that rather than to tell me I am not supportive and tell me to go away.
Fuck You!

In our society people are automatically presumed to be straight. There's no need to come out as straight because everyone already thinks you are.
Anyone who doesn't see why homosexuals should need or want to come out is an asshole with their head in the sand.
Also, anyone who would go to the PIAS forum and trivialize someone's real life problem, is an asshole too.
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17-03-2014, 02:47 AM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(16-03-2014 10:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-03-2014 09:28 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I understood the point you were making Stevil, but you being straight, have never had to deal (and never will) with such a situation. You can't genuinely compare it to your own life. Sometimes, we have to experience something first hand to really understand how another person is feeling about a particular situation.
I never said I understood his position, nor did i compare it to my own life.

All I said was that I didn't come out and tell people about my sexuality and I didn't think that sexuality was "public domain to be discussed, debated, analysed and judged"

and I followed that up with a question that I had "Why should your being gay require an announcement?"

I really struggle to see what some people have issue with in my message.

I understand what you say, you think that making an announcement is unnecessary and homosexuality should be treated like any other sexual orientation, for example, casually talking about a boyfriend while being a man without pointing out anything.

The problem with that is that usually that casual mention is a coming out on itself, people transform it into an announcement. If they are ok with it they may just say "oh so you're gay?" and the topic changes to that, at least for a moment.

Heterosexuality is assumed pretty much always, except "clear" cases (flamboyant guys or butch girls). So some kind of coming out is necessary, it doesn't mean sitting the whole family down at the table and being all formal and ceremonious, it could be done in a casual way, but it is a coming out anyway.

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17-03-2014, 03:43 AM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I understand what you say, you think that making an announcement is unnecessary and homosexuality should be treated like any other sexual orientation, for example, casually talking about a boyfriend while being a man without pointing out anything.
I'm not quite sure exactly what the term "coming out" actually means.

One of my cousins came out last year. She did it at her mother's funeral, up on the podium at the wake.

My parents thought it was bad taste. They said "Who cares whether she is gay or not?". In a way I agree with them and in a way I don't.
Obviously it was important to her to "come out" and I assume she hadn't earlier because of her mother and now could no longer contain herself. So from her perspective all this repression needed to come off her shoulders and be out in the open.
But my parents were correct too. Who cares what gender she is attracted to, that is her business and really the funeral was about celebrating her mother's life rather than an opportunity for the daughter to make a public proclaimation as to her sexual orientation.

It's my opinion that people don't need to make such a proclaimation, not to relatives, not to friends and not to workmates. If they want to, if they feel it is something to get off their chest, then that is up to them if they want to, but they don't have to.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  The problem with that is that usually that casual mention is a coming out on itself, people transform it into an announcement. If they are ok with it they may just say "oh so you're gay?" and the topic changes to that, at least for a moment.
I have on a couple of occassions had a situation where a male workmate has spoken in casual conversation of their boyfriend. We both new it was the first time I knew about their sexual orientation and I did not say "oh so you're gay?", actually I simply responded the same way I would have had they said "girlfriend" rather than "boyfriend" I didn't think it was something worth drawing attention to. I mean if a white male tells you that they have a Chinese girlfriend do you say "Oh so you like Chinese girls huh?"

Anyway, these "coming outs" and this conversation here makes me wonder what exactly does "coming out" mean. How many times can an individual come out?
Is it a coming out when they make it obvious to their parents? What about when they let their friends know? What about when they let their workmates know? What about when they let new acquaintances know?
At what point do all these coming outs become no longer a coming out but merely just a normal part of their life?
I felt in my two conversations above that these were not coming outs but were merely normal conversations. They didn't say, "Oh by the way, I am gay". It was more like,
Me - "What are you upto this week-end?"
Him - "I'm going to a charity event"
Me - "Oh wow, how come you are involved in a charity?"
Him - "My boyfriend is a member of <such and such> charity"
Me - "Oh cool, where is it being held?"...

I've also had a situation where a project manager I worked closely with was gay, you wouldn't know it because he isn't effeminate, but at work events he always brought along his boyfriend. There was no "coming out" or any declaration of sexual orientation, but just natural conversation and events e.g. bring boyfriend along, introduce by telling us his partner's name etc.

I really, really don't think anyone has to verbally declare to anyone else what their sexual orientation is.

With regards to parents, maybe that is a different story.
And I recognise that if family and/or friends are prejudice against gays then it would be an incredibly difficult thing to do (Come out).
My previous comments weren't about how difficult coming out is (I would have no clue on such matters). My comments were merely to state that your sexual orientation is your business and your business only and there is no obligation to tell anyone which way you are oriented.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Heterosexuality is assumed pretty much always, except "clear" cases (flamboyant guys or butch girls). So some kind of coming out is necessary, it doesn't mean sitting the whole family down at the table and being all formal and ceremonious, it could be done in a casual way, but it is a coming out anyway.
Even if it is generally expected that people are straight this does not mean that gays are then obliged to "come out" and tell people that they differ from this expectation.
It might be that a gay guy talks about their boyfriend as if it is completely normal and as if this won't be a surprise to the audience. The audience might consider it a "coming out" but maybe the gay guy doesn't. Maybe the gay guy just thinks of it as normal chit chat.
Anyway, I have been the audience and I didn't consider it anything monumental especially because it was part of natural conversation, but I understand that if a person has been repressed and is overcoming this repression and is overcoming their fears and is risking backlash then it can be important and monumental for them.
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17-03-2014, 04:03 AM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(17-03-2014 03:43 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I understand what you say, you think that making an announcement is unnecessary and homosexuality should be treated like any other sexual orientation, for example, casually talking about a boyfriend while being a man without pointing out anything.
I'm not quite sure exactly what the term "coming out" actually means.

One of my cousins came out last year. She did it at her mother's funeral, up on the podium at the wake.

My parents thought it was bad taste. They said "Who cares whether she is gay or not?". In a way I agree with them and in a way I don't.
Obviously it was important to her to "come out" and I assume she hadn't earlier because of her mother and now could no longer contain herself. So from her perspective all this repression needed to come off her shoulders and be out in the open.
But my parents were correct too. Who cares what gender she is attracted to, that is her business and really the funeral was about celebrating her mother's life rather than an opportunity for the daughter to make a public proclaimation as to her sexual orientation.

It's my opinion that people don't need to make such a proclaimation, not to relatives, not to friends and not to workmates. If they want to, if they feel it is something to get off their chest, then that is up to them if they want to, but they don't have to.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  The problem with that is that usually that casual mention is a coming out on itself, people transform it into an announcement. If they are ok with it they may just say "oh so you're gay?" and the topic changes to that, at least for a moment.
I have on a couple of occassions had a situation where a male workmate has spoken in casual conversation of their boyfriend. We both new it was the first time I knew about their sexual orientation and I did not say "oh so you're gay?", actually I simply responded the same way I would have had they said "girlfriend" rather than "boyfriend" I didn't think it was something worth drawing attention to. I mean if a white male tells you that they have a Chinese girlfriend do you say "Oh so you like Chinese girls huh?"

Anyway, these "coming outs" and this conversation here makes me wonder what exactly does "coming out" mean. How many times can an individual come out?
Is it a coming out when they make it obvious to their parents? What about when they let their friends know? What about when they let their workmates know? What about when they let new acquaintances know?
At what point do all these coming outs become no longer a coming out but merely just a normal part of their life?
I felt in my two conversations above that these were not coming outs but were merely normal conversations. They didn't say, "Oh by the way, I am gay". It was more like,
Me - "What are you upto this week-end?"
Him - "I'm going to a charity event"
Me - "Oh wow, how come you are involved in a charity?"
Him - "My boyfriend is a member of <such and such> charity"
Me - "Oh cool, where is it being held?"...

I've also had a situation where a project manager I worked closely with was gay, you wouldn't know it because he isn't effeminate, but at work events he always brought along his boyfriend. There was no "coming out" or any declaration of sexual orientation, but just natural conversation and events e.g. bring boyfriend along, introduce by telling us his partner's name etc.

I really, really don't think anyone has to verbally declare to anyone else what their sexual orientation is.

With regards to parents, maybe that is a different story.
And I recognise that if family and/or friends are prejudice against gays then it would be an incredibly difficult thing to do (Come out).
My previous comments weren't about how difficult coming out is (I would have no clue on such matters). My comments were merely to state that your sexual orientation is your business and your business only and there is no obligation to tell anyone which way you are oriented.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Heterosexuality is assumed pretty much always, except "clear" cases (flamboyant guys or butch girls). So some kind of coming out is necessary, it doesn't mean sitting the whole family down at the table and being all formal and ceremonious, it could be done in a casual way, but it is a coming out anyway.
Even if it is generally expected that people are straight this does not mean that gays are then obliged to "come out" and tell people that they differ from this expectation.
It might be that a gay guy talks about their boyfriend as if it is completely normal and as if this won't be a surprise to the audience. The audience might consider it a "coming out" but maybe the gay guy doesn't. Maybe the gay guy just thinks of it as normal chit chat.
Anyway, I have been the audience and I didn't consider it anything monumental especially because it was part of natural conversation, but I understand that if a person has been repressed and is overcoming this repression and is overcoming their fears and is risking backlash then it can be important and monumental for them.

Ok fine, I withdraw my previous accusations of assholery. I still think you must be wearing blinders if you think the average homosexual can just talk about his boyfriend or her girlfriend as if it were totally normal without some sort of negative reaction.
A kid might write his parents a note, guess what I have a boyfriend. Or a girl might casually tell her mother how cute this girl she knows is, but in most cases the first time you tell people it is a big deal, a huge deal. You can outwardly act like it isn't but it is.
I was walking around with a scarlet A on my blouse in my family after getting a divorce. So my baby sister and her girlfriend figured I was the safest person to test the waters with. You know, who better to tell than a sinner lol. They were so terrified as they sat across the table from me, I was nervous too just because I didn't know what they could tell me that would be so scary. When finally my sister said, she and I are dating, I burst into laughter. All the built up suspense to tell me something that seemed so obvious to me. The rest of my family didn't take it so well, though. So they have put off telling her girlfriend's family for now. I can't say I blame them.

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17-03-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: [split] Conflicted
(17-03-2014 03:43 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I understand what you say, you think that making an announcement is unnecessary and homosexuality should be treated like any other sexual orientation, for example, casually talking about a boyfriend while being a man without pointing out anything.
I'm not quite sure exactly what the term "coming out" actually means.

One of my cousins came out last year. She did it at her mother's funeral, up on the podium at the wake.

My parents thought it was bad taste. They said "Who cares whether she is gay or not?". In a way I agree with them and in a way I don't.
Obviously it was important to her to "come out" and I assume she hadn't earlier because of her mother and now could no longer contain herself. So from her perspective all this repression needed to come off her shoulders and be out in the open.
But my parents were correct too. Who cares what gender she is attracted to, that is her business and really the funeral was about celebrating her mother's life rather than an opportunity for the daughter to make a public proclaimation as to her sexual orientation.

It's my opinion that people don't need to make such a proclaimation, not to relatives, not to friends and not to workmates. If they want to, if they feel it is something to get off their chest, then that is up to them if they want to, but they don't have to.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  The problem with that is that usually that casual mention is a coming out on itself, people transform it into an announcement. If they are ok with it they may just say "oh so you're gay?" and the topic changes to that, at least for a moment.
I have on a couple of occassions had a situation where a male workmate has spoken in casual conversation of their boyfriend. We both new it was the first time I knew about their sexual orientation and I did not say "oh so you're gay?", actually I simply responded the same way I would have had they said "girlfriend" rather than "boyfriend" I didn't think it was something worth drawing attention to. I mean if a white male tells you that they have a Chinese girlfriend do you say "Oh so you like Chinese girls huh?"

Anyway, these "coming outs" and this conversation here makes me wonder what exactly does "coming out" mean. How many times can an individual come out?
Is it a coming out when they make it obvious to their parents? What about when they let their friends know? What about when they let their workmates know? What about when they let new acquaintances know?
At what point do all these coming outs become no longer a coming out but merely just a normal part of their life?
I felt in my two conversations above that these were not coming outs but were merely normal conversations. They didn't say, "Oh by the way, I am gay". It was more like,
Me - "What are you upto this week-end?"
Him - "I'm going to a charity event"
Me - "Oh wow, how come you are involved in a charity?"
Him - "My boyfriend is a member of <such and such> charity"
Me - "Oh cool, where is it being held?"...

I've also had a situation where a project manager I worked closely with was gay, you wouldn't know it because he isn't effeminate, but at work events he always brought along his boyfriend. There was no "coming out" or any declaration of sexual orientation, but just natural conversation and events e.g. bring boyfriend along, introduce by telling us his partner's name etc.

I really, really don't think anyone has to verbally declare to anyone else what their sexual orientation is.

With regards to parents, maybe that is a different story.
And I recognise that if family and/or friends are prejudice against gays then it would be an incredibly difficult thing to do (Come out).
My previous comments weren't about how difficult coming out is (I would have no clue on such matters). My comments were merely to state that your sexual orientation is your business and your business only and there is no obligation to tell anyone which way you are oriented.

(17-03-2014 02:47 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Heterosexuality is assumed pretty much always, except "clear" cases (flamboyant guys or butch girls). So some kind of coming out is necessary, it doesn't mean sitting the whole family down at the table and being all formal and ceremonious, it could be done in a casual way, but it is a coming out anyway.
Even if it is generally expected that people are straight this does not mean that gays are then obliged to "come out" and tell people that they differ from this expectation.
It might be that a gay guy talks about their boyfriend as if it is completely normal and as if this won't be a surprise to the audience. The audience might consider it a "coming out" but maybe the gay guy doesn't. Maybe the gay guy just thinks of it as normal chit chat.
Anyway, I have been the audience and I didn't consider it anything monumental especially because it was part of natural conversation, but I understand that if a person has been repressed and is overcoming this repression and is overcoming their fears and is risking backlash then it can be important and monumental for them.

Coming out is acknowledging publicly that you're gay. It doesn't come with a method or anything like it.

That last part of your post is spot on, and it is specially difficult the first few times, then it gets natural like you said before.
The problem is that we don't get to understand our sexuality in a normal way, at least not the 20 so year olds, the younger kids have more access to info, but in my case and most guys of my age I know, info was kind of hard to get when developing our sexual identity.
That means that anything related to homosexuality seems clandestine, bad and only spoken in innuendos and forced tangents. Coming out is putting the cards on the table and saying enough of this shit! .
Take me for example, when I was 15 I already knew I was gay, one time I was arguing with my mom about homosexuality, I was defending it of course, my mom got upset, looked me in the eyes, and told me that she rather I was "dead than a fag" (muerto antes que puto, in spanish). I had to keep my poker face and lie to her face that of course I wasn't gay and changed the subject. That shit scars you, and coming out to her, for me (and others may relate in their own personal experience) was like saying "I chose to not hide who I am, now you choose if you love me or if I'm dead to you". That's what coming out is all about, is a very powerful assertion of identity, at one point it even becomes political, so that's why is not just a private matter and nobody's business. We can't just not give a fuck, kids now might, it's normal enough in some places, and they can just build their identity publicly without pressure, that great and healthy, but in some places that's not an option yet.

Besides, as you said, if it's hidden for a long time it builds pressure, it's hard to either lie or hide a part of your identity, being aware of pronouns, saying "check that girl's ass" while checking her boyfriend's and stuff like that is tiresome and frustrating. So when you finally decide to say it publicly, the first few times, it comes out as explosive, and it can seem aggressive or uncalled for as with your cousin.

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