[split] Congratulations.
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15-07-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Congratulations.
(15-07-2014 08:52 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 08:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  If the only way to deal with bigotry was outright condemnation

1. Muffs would be shunned here. Did you miss his racist hatred nigger episodes?

2. There would be no social evolution.

Outright condemnation causes wars. Discussion causes change.

1: If he was still doing it yes he would be shunned.

2. No that is how we affect change. By challenging those with bigoted views and drawing them into the light of day. Did you miss the civil rights movement? They did not ask the klan nicely to stop burning them. Condemnation of views is what forces people to reexamine themselves. See the gay rights push over the last 15 years, now it is socially unacceptable to be a homophobe because the public will condemn you for it.

3. No acceptance of bigotry is what hold back progress.

I was very much part of the civil rights movement, the gay movement, the legalize pot movement and the women's lib movement. I was an activist in the 70s. I was part of what got these balls rolling.

We didn't succeed by condemning people the way they condemned us. We succeeded by showing people the truth. We succeeded by involving them in conversations.

Digging a trench and demanding people humiliate themselves by apologizing for their indoctrination was not part of the plan. Divisiveness was not part of the plan at all, coming together was the goal.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-07-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Congratulations.
I think if you (anybody) have to demand an apology then you may get one but it won't be real. Explaining how someone makes you feel with their choice of words is one thing. The apology or not is Their choice.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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15-07-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Congratulations.
I can see where Muffs gets the homophobic side of Wolf. Weird for me that I like them both. I don't have to like Wolf's issues with gays to like him in other ways. And Muffs can be as nasty as he sees fit.
Freedom is freedom as far as I'm concerned and we should monitor one another less not more.
That being said I DO understand Dom and appreciate her nurturing protective self.


Apologies f o r any weird typing.
I'm on my phone.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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15-07-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Congratulations.
(15-07-2014 06:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 06:37 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I must have missed where he back peddled. If he no longer believes these things then let him say so and I will have no ill feelings towards him. If he believes anything like this then I'm sorry, but coming from a different time and place is no excuse for being willfully ignorant and intolerent.

He is not willfully ignorant and intolerant, he is indoctrinated. Very different thing, he simply believed what everyone around him believed in his formative years. It's not like he was born in the 90s and decided to willfully denounce what had become reasonably obvious to see by then.

Why does there have to be any excuse? He doesn't need to be excused. That is just as bad as persecuting him for it. This is not about excusing anything. This is about allowing and promoting change.

Yes, he is willfully ignorant and intolerant if he still believes these things. When a person was born is not nearly as relevant as you make it seem. He may not have been born in the 90's but he is living in 2014. He has access to the same realities as everyone else.

Why does he need to be excused? I am not the thought police okay, but if he is going to say things like that (spreading ignorance and hatred) on an Internet forum, then he needs to be called out for it.

Are we now shaming people for "persecuting" the persecutors? Is it morally wrong to be intolerant of intolerance? I think not. I am not harassing him. I am simply saying that what he said was disgusting and indefensible.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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15-07-2014, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2014 10:46 AM by WitchSabrina.)
RE: Congratulations.
I am often intolerant of intolerance.

I'm with Dom on instead of shaming educating works better.

Wolf do you still see gay parenting as a bad thing?
Keep it simple. Good or bad and why
Lets just clear this up.

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15-07-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Congratulations.
(15-07-2014 10:31 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 06:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  He is not willfully ignorant and intolerant, he is indoctrinated. Very different thing, he simply believed what everyone around him believed in his formative years. It's not like he was born in the 90s and decided to willfully denounce what had become reasonably obvious to see by then.

Why does there have to be any excuse? He doesn't need to be excused. That is just as bad as persecuting him for it. This is not about excusing anything. This is about allowing and promoting change.

Yes, he is willfully ignorant and intolerant if he still believes these things. When a person was born is not nearly as relevant as you make it seem. He may not have been born in the 90's but he is living in 2014. He has access to the same realities as everyone else.

Why does he need to be excused? I am not the thought police okay, but if he is going to say things like that (spreading ignorance and hatred) on an Internet forum, then he needs to be called out for it.

Are we now shaming people for "persecuting" the persecutors? Is it morally wrong to be intolerant of intolerance? I think not. I am not harassing him. I am simply saying that what he said was disgusting and indefensible.

It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with indoctrination. You can't change indoctrination by persecution, you change it with reason and dialogue.

Who excused him? Not me. There is no excuse, there is a reason. If you know the reason, you can effect change.

Persecution is always wrong. It's like a feud. Reason flies out the window. Some place, someone has to stop it or we simply perpetuate everything.

You are perfectly right, it was disgusting. Nobody is defending it. Certainly not me.

But spending month after month stalking someone, sniping anytime the make a peep, and posting daily in their rep for MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS is not the way to effect any change, it's just being vindictive.

Confronting ignorance and continually doing so, using reason and proof, that changes things. We didn't get the ball rolling to effect huge social changes that you all enjoy today by being quiet and going away, we were in people's faces and we would not go away. And we were loud.

But we didn't judge them the way they judged us. We were interested in lasting change, not vendettas.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-07-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Congratulations.
(15-07-2014 10:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 10:31 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Yes, he is willfully ignorant and intolerant if he still believes these things. When a person was born is not nearly as relevant as you make it seem. He may not have been born in the 90's but he is living in 2014. He has access to the same realities as everyone else.

Why does he need to be excused? I am not the thought police okay, but if he is going to say things like that (spreading ignorance and hatred) on an Internet forum, then he needs to be called out for it.

Are we now shaming people for "persecuting" the persecutors? Is it morally wrong to be intolerant of intolerance? I think not. I am not harassing him. I am simply saying that what he said was disgusting and indefensible.

It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with indoctrination. You can't change indoctrination by persecution, you change it with reason and dialogue.

Who excused him? Not me. There is no excuse, there is a reason. If you know the reason, you can effect change.

Persecution is always wrong. It's like a feud. Reason flies out the window. Some place, someone has to stop it or we simply perpetuate everything.

You are perfectly right, it was disgusting. Nobody is defending it. Certainly not me.

But spending month after month stalking someone, sniping anytime the make a peep, and posting daily in their rep for MONTHS and MONTHS and MONTHS is not the way to effect any change, it's just being vindictive.

Confronting ignorance and continually doing so, using reason and proof, that changes things. We didn't get the ball rolling to effect huge social changes that you all enjoy today by being quiet and going away, we were in people's faces and we would not go away. And we were loud.

But we didn't judge them the way they judged us. We were interested in lasting change, not vendettas.

This I can agree with Smile

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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15-07-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Congratulations.
(15-07-2014 10:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  It has nothing to do with age, it has to do with indoctrination. You can't change indoctrination by persecution, you change it with reason and dialogue.
Why do you assume that Mr Woof was indoctrinated? What makes you think that he didn't form these beliefs on his own?

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15-07-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Congratulations.
Why are people still posting in this thread? Hobo

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15-07-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: Congratulations.
Fighting hatred with more hatred?

(glances throughout history)

Yeah that works Rolleyes

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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