[split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
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09-03-2015, 11:38 PM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lol[sic] I get that we will never see a dog become anything else in our life time thats[sic] okay natural selection needs time to change things that dramatically.


Do you really now?

"Natuaral[sic] selection is easy to see as you pointed out the relationship between the wolf and the dog. But I have yet to see a dog breed anything other than a dog."

One has to wonder. Either you are terrible at communicating your thoughts clearly, or you're a liar.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  And really germs and gravity? Germs are something we can see these days there a fact, theres[sic] to much scientific evidence and research proving that germs and gravity exist ( all though[sic] to be fair we always knew gravity existed we just never named it. Its almost as bad as saying columbus[sic] discovered America.)


The evidence for evolution is far more substantial that the evidence we have for germ theory and the theory of gravity. If your evidence threshold is such that you accept either of those two, by what reason do you continue to be so credulous in regards to evolution?

I'd posit that you don't have a good reason.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  But even with all that we still havent[sic] gotten to the root of your belief.


Evidence.

That's now the second time I've explicitly spelled out the 'root of my belief'. I don't know how much simpler I can make that for you.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  You just keep spouting the same things like they somehow disprove everything.


I scale my belief to the amount of available evidence. It's why I accept evolution by natural selection, and I don't posit a positive belief in the supernatural.

You keep doing nothing more than begging the question.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Im[sic] not here to fight im[sic] here to have yall[sic] show me how to paint with ALL the colors of the wind.


Watch Disney's Pocahontas.

Pro Tip: Trees don't talk.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Maybe if I explain a little bit about myself yall[sic] can stop bitching and help me understand what you see when you look out at the world.


An end to your obfuscation and presuppositionalism? One can hope.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  I was born into a christian family and at the age of 4 was enrolled in a private CHRISTIAN school were on top of the regular work load that the average student faces we were forced to study the bible daily (learn a verse, learn the stories, briefly go over prophecy etc) at the age of 12 I moved into public school where my only christian influence (besides home of course) was church. By the age 14 I stopped participating in church finding that most were either (for lack of a better word.... or maybe the perfect word) scams the other half were filled with hypocrites that only knew the bible enough to be self righteous but maintain no real relationship with God. Needless to say I stopped going to church and decided to just read my bible a total of an hour a week (10 minutes most days) by the time I was 16 I met a girl at a rave I was at who invited me to her church where I found a lot more genuine christians[sic]. Christians actually filled with love and humble as fuck. The pastor was also gay, but man did he know the bible more than any pastor I had met previously. At the age of 17 I moved away to help a friend start a tattoo business and to start college. I only did one class per semester wetting my feet in various majors. Now that that business is well underway ive[sic] dedicated myself fully in school this semester.


Cool story bro. Needs more dragons.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Where now I find myself curious at the age of 21 at what exactley[sic] an atheist sees when he/she looks out at the world. (I also consider myself an independent christian as alot[sic] of my views and interpretations are not generally used in the average close minded church)


All an atheist is, is someone who lacks a positive belief in deities. That's it.

Some of us are conservatives, others are liberals. We come from all continents, countries, and peoples. Some are skeptics, some are humanists, some are secularists, many of us are many of these things. The one thing that we share is the lack of belief.

So when we look out into reality, we do not see any sufficient evidence for the divine. If we did, we'd no longer be atheists.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  So my brothers and sisters enlighten me.


I don't offer enlightenment. I offer evidence in search of the truth. Maybe that will get you to enlightenment, maybe not. I find it to be the only intellectually honest option.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lets start at the beginning how did the universe come into existence?


I don't know, but we have some interesting ideas backed by evidence. What we can say for certain however is that there is no evidence in support of any of the divine creation stories that various people the world over have created to explain the world around them. The cosmic microwave background radiation doesn't support the story of creation found in Genesis; either of them.

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09-03-2015, 11:42 PM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 10:26 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 09:59 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  To say that evolution has predictions that come true is to broad a statement.


An example.

Humans have 46 (23 pairs) chromosomes, while the other Great Apes (Orangutangs, Gorillas, and Chimpanzees) all have 48 (24 pairs) chromosomes. If we are as closely related to the other Great Apes as indicated by comparative morphology, then evolution would predict that at one time Homo Sapiens also had 48 chromosomes. However we no longer have 48, we have 46. What could have happened to get from 48 to 46? Well, just losing a whole chromosome set would be fatal, so that option is out. Therefore evolution predicted that most likely some chromosomes fused together, and if we examine the human genome, we should find a human chromosome with evidence that it was once two sets of chromosomes. That is the prediction of evolution.

We can, and did, test that prediction. Chromosomes have clear markers at their ends (Telomere) and their centers (Centromere). If a chromosome is fused from a previous set of ancestral chromosomes, we would expect to find two sets of centromeres instead of one, and a extra set of telomeres within the chromosome instead of just at it's ends.

That is exactly what we found within human Chromosome 2.


[Image: Chromosome2_merge.png]


Evolution made a prediction.


Science validated it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_%28human%29

Quote:The evidence for this includes:

- The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.

- The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.

- The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

- Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2."
Thats more like it but heres where I get stuck the bible says God made us in his image but obviously god has no physical form as he is everything so really he designed us from his imagination well a primeape is the most capable animal he created why not use that as a basis work from there to create a more adaptable vessel? FOR EXAMPLE:A spider with a red color on its chest lives among purple flowers so it can catch the insects that come to feed on the flower in one way or another natural selction says that the spiders with a closer hue to the purple of the flower wouod be the most likely to survive. So through many generations it began to change(evolve) its hue to a more purple one until it reached the purple of the flower. But why when it comes to humans do we lose things? I mean in what area of the world do the non hand like feet come out as a good thing? In what area of the world is not having the insulating fur help? Why are we physically weaker than most primeapes I mean that atleast needs to be examined how does being weaker helo anything?
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09-03-2015, 11:46 PM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
Lol * why are we physically weaker than most primeapes I mean that atleast needs to be examined, how does being weaker help anything?
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09-03-2015, 11:51 PM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lol[sic] I get that we will never see a dog become anything else in our life time thats[sic] okay natural selection needs time to change things that dramatically.


Do you really now?

"Natuaral[sic] selection is easy to see as you pointed out the relationship between the wolf and the dog. But I have yet to see a dog breed anything other than a dog."

One has to wonder. Either you are terrible at communicating your thoughts clearly, or you're a liar.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  And really germs and gravity? Germs are something we can see these days there a fact, theres[sic] to much scientific evidence and research proving that germs and gravity exist ( all though[sic] to be fair we always knew gravity existed we just never named it. Its almost as bad as saying columbus[sic] discovered America.)


The evidence for evolution is far more substantial that the evidence we have for germ theory and the theory of gravity. If your evidence threshold is such that you accept either of those two, by what reason do you continue to be so credulous in regards to evolution?

I'd posit that you don't have a good reason.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  But even with all that we still havent[sic] gotten to the root of your belief.


Evidence.

That's now the second time I've explicitly spelled out the 'root of my belief'. I don't know how much simpler I can make that for you.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  You just keep spouting the same things like they somehow disprove everything.


I scale my belief to the amount of available evidence. It's why I accept evolution by natural selection, and I don't posit a positive belief in the supernatural.

You keep doing nothing more than begging the question.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Im[sic] not here to fight im[sic] here to have yall[sic] show me how to paint with ALL the colors of the wind.


Watch Disney's Pocahontas.

Pro Tip: Trees don't talk.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Maybe if I explain a little bit about myself yall[sic] can stop bitching and help me understand what you see when you look out at the world.


An end to your obfuscation and presuppositionalism? One can hope.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  I was born into a christian family and at the age of 4 was enrolled in a private CHRISTIAN school were on top of the regular work load that the average student faces we were forced to study the bible daily (learn a verse, learn the stories, briefly go over prophecy etc) at the age of 12 I moved into public school where my only christian influence (besides home of course) was church. By the age 14 I stopped participating in church finding that most were either (for lack of a better word.... or maybe the perfect word) scams the other half were filled with hypocrites that only knew the bible enough to be self righteous but maintain no real relationship with God. Needless to say I stopped going to church and decided to just read my bible a total of an hour a week (10 minutes most days) by the time I was 16 I met a girl at a rave I was at who invited me to her church where I found a lot more genuine christians[sic]. Christians actually filled with love and humble as fuck. The pastor was also gay, but man did he know the bible more than any pastor I had met previously. At the age of 17 I moved away to help a friend start a tattoo business and to start college. I only did one class per semester wetting my feet in various majors. Now that that business is well underway ive[sic] dedicated myself fully in school this semester.


Cool story bro. Needs more dragons.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Where now I find myself curious at the age of 21 at what exactley[sic] an atheist sees when he/she looks out at the world. (I also consider myself an independent christian as alot[sic] of my views and interpretations are not generally used in the average close minded church)


All an atheist is, is someone who lacks a positive belief in deities. That's it.

Some of us are conservatives, others are liberals. We come from all continents, countries, and peoples. Some are skeptics, some are humanists, some are secularists, many of us are many of these things. The one thing that we share is the lack of belief.

So when we look out into reality, we do not see any sufficient evidence for the divine. If we did, we'd no longer be atheists.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  So my brothers and sisters enlighten me.


I don't offer enlightenment. I offer evidence in search of the truth. Maybe that will get you to enlightenment, maybe not. I find it to be the only intellectually honest option.



(09-03-2015 11:06 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lets start at the beginning how did the universe come into existence?


I don't know, but we have some interesting ideas backed by evidence. What we can say for certain however is that there is no evidence in support of any of the divine creation stories that various people the world over have created to explain the world around them. The cosmic microwave background radiation doesn't support the story of creation found in Genesis; either of them.
Lmao like a child throwing a tantrum. Now you say you offer evidence lets go through the theories you know about how the universe started.
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09-03-2015, 11:55 PM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
Can you post links and pictures and graphs with your evidence (of course you dont have to do the pictures and graphs but a link would be very nice)
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10-03-2015, 12:03 AM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:55 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Can you post links and pictures and graphs with your evidence (of course you dont have to do the pictures and graphs but a link would be very nice)

Seriously dude you claim to be a student of biology. Have you NEVER opened a biology book? Facepalm


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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10-03-2015, 12:11 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 12:25 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Thats[sic] more like it but heres[sic] where I get stuck the bible says God made us in his image but obviously god has no physical form as he is everything so really he designed us from his imagination well a primeape[sic] is the most capable animal he created why not use that as a basis work from there to create a more adaptable vessel?


Entirely unsubstantiated. God is not obviously anything, let alone everything.

How do you even define 'most capable'? If by 'capable', you mean 'best suited to survive', then we're not even the most capable species on this planet. That honor would probably fall to the Tardigrade. It can survive the both the radiation and the vacuum of space, extremes of temperature (-272 C to 151 C), pressure (6000 atmospheres), and dehydration.



(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  FOR EXAMPLE:A spider with a red color on its chest lives among purple flowers so it can catch the insects that come to feed on the flower in one way or another natural selction[sic] says that the spiders with a closer hue to the purple of the flower wouod[sic] be the most likely to survive.


Not necessarily. It depends on whether or not camouflage is advantageous to the survivability of that spider. Now considering that many, if not most, species of spiders do not rely on camouflage for survival (that's what their web is for); I have to wonder were you are going with this.



(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  So through many generations it began to change(evolve) its hue to a more purple one until it reached the purple of the flower. But why when it comes to humans do we lose things?


You'd better be more specific.



(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  I mean in what area of the world do the non hand like feet come out as a good thing?


Have you seen a chimpanzee or gorilla sprint? How about long distance running on just two feet? No? Because they haven't adapted to be able to do that, unlike humans. As the forests in northern Africa gave way to the desert millions of years ago, our ancestors had to adapt to spending more time on the ground than in the trees.

Fortunately for us all, they succeeded.



(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  In what area of the world is not having the insulating fur help?


Sub-Saharan Africa. You know, where our species originated from.



(09-03-2015 11:42 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Why are we physically weaker than most primeapes[sic] I mean that atleast[sic] needs to be examined how does being weaker helo[sic] anything?


Because greater strength clearly wasn't conducive to the survival of our species. We actually have the genes for the stronger jaw muscles seen in gorillas (never mind that our current bite strength already matches that of a Great White shark), but they're now dormant; which is good. Those extra muscles required more bone structure to anchor themselves to, resulting in reduced cavity space for the brain within the skull. By losing those extra muscles, our skulls were able to expand and accommodate our proportionally larger brains; and our brains have been one of the greatest keys to our species' survival.

We also competed with larger and stronger species, most notably Homo Neanderthalensis, and we came out on top. Clearly being larger and stronger came at a cost, and it resulted in their extinction.

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10-03-2015, 12:14 AM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:51 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lmao like a child throwing a tantrum. Now you say you offer evidence lets go through the theories you know about how the universe started.


I'm sorry, do you have anything more substantial to add other than begging the question?


Didn't think so. Drinking Beverage

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10-03-2015, 12:16 AM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(09-03-2015 11:46 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Lol * why are we physically weaker than most primeapes I mean that atleast needs to be examined, how does being weaker help anything?

Your personal incredulity is not evidence for your belief in the supernatural or the divine. Drinking Beverage

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10-03-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: [split] Conversations with Theists/Creationists
(10-03-2015 12:03 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 11:55 PM)A New Hope Wrote:  Can you post links and pictures and graphs with your evidence (of course you dont have to do the pictures and graphs but a link would be very nice)

Seriously dude you claim to be a student of biology. Have you NEVER opened a biology book? Facepalm
*sigh* I must be wasting my money on this school I didnt realize human antomy, human physiology, and general biology go over the beginning of the the universe. My bad I guess I missed that chapter..... shit and the drop date passed like a two weeks ago. Moms congrats on making admin. So like I said lets start at the beginning moms can you help me go over these theories as an admin im guessing you you must know a great amount on evolution as a whole. What are the theories offered by evoultionists to how the universe was created? (Wouldnt that type of information be more in like an astrology class? What class would go over that?) Yall are entertaining, your antichristian prejudice is so laughable, but are you really going to let it get in the way of showing a humble student the path? I was hoping to go over your theories and evidence and see why you believe that there is no way that there can be a God, but all im seeing is A LOT of angry talk and very little actual evidence. Lets go over evidence behind these theories... please? Can you do that for me moms?
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