[split] Debating Lion IRC
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14-01-2013, 07:47 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 07:40 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  As for empirical evidence, how much repeatability would you need kingschosen? How many times would you expect Jesus to allow skeptics to execute Him over and over before your said OK, yes, His Resurrection can be tested according to the scientific method? I'm assuming you have a suitably qualified panel of peer reviewers who expect Jesus to show up on demand.
Hence why you can't make an argument based on empirical evidence, which was the point KC was making.

What is the confusion?

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14-01-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 07:40 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(14-01-2013 12:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hey, Lion... Christian here.

But, I think there is a disconnect between what you're saying and what they're saying.

So, let me ask:

Can you provide any empirical evidence(1) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

(1) This does not include the Bible, anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness accounts.

If not, then there is no debate. Like the existence of God, this debate is based on unfalsifiable evidence. As Egor said, no one (alive)was there 2000 years ago; therefore, it cannot be proved or disproved empirically(2).

It is purely based on faith.

(2) Sure, there are historical debates on Christ and His existence, but they are largely inconclusive because again, they are based on unfalsifiable evidence. Likewise, proving His existence runs parallel to this.

People can debate the Resurrection of Jesus on whatever basis they like.

Atothetheist hasnt stipulated any debate conditions or even a format.
And so far I've seen a lot of argumentum ad youtubeam (...I'm too lazy to debate so watch this video of a summary of a book by a person who quotemines a ton of other ppls stuff) and not much actual debate framework.

If Atothetheist or anyone else wants to argue a case that the biblical account of Jesus' life and death is exaggerated, the burden of proof rests on the person making that claim. All I want to know is, how can such a claim even be offered for debate without an ACTUAL (non-exaggerated) account for comparison.

And I am not going to debate someone who ultimately retreats to the cowards corner claiming that the person whose Resurrection is being debated never really existed in the first place. That is a disingenuous bait-n-switch request for a debate about one topic and trying to change the topic after the debate has begun.

Maybe Atothetheist needs to resolve the historicity of a persons existence first before asking every passer-by if they want to debate some aspect of that person's life and death.

As for empirical evidence, how much repeatability would you need kingschosen? How many times would you expect Jesus to allow skeptics to execute Him over and over before your said OK, yes, His Resurrection can be tested according to the scientific method? I'm assuming you have a suitably qualified panel of peer reviewers who expect Jesus to show up on demand.

Ummm. I already said I believed in a historical base of Jesus.

You haven't responded in the thread I set up, so I assumed you were just going to avoid it. I introduced a topic and I even offered you to go first.

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14-01-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 07:47 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(14-01-2013 07:40 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  As for empirical evidence, how much repeatability would you need kingschosen? How many times would you expect Jesus to allow skeptics to execute Him over and over before your said OK, yes, His Resurrection can be tested according to the scientific method? I'm assuming you have a suitably qualified panel of peer reviewers who expect Jesus to show up on demand.
Hence why you can't make an argument based on empirical evidence, which was the point KC was making.

What is the confusion?

I can make a Resurrection argument based on empirical evidence. Empricial evidence is that derived from the senses - all of them.

The only question is how much repeatability is demanded. That can vary. One test? Two? Three? Three hundred?

If a person I completely trust reports empirical evidence they observed (data) about polar ice caps melting, I wouldnt doubt the result. But another person who reads the same report they might be entitled to challenge the trustworthiness of the person reporting the same data and they might want to go and verify it for themself or send a different scientist - not on my payroll, more qualified, better observational equipment, more pro-business, more pro-environment....etc etc.
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14-01-2013, 08:09 PM
RE: I miss theists.
This wont surprise a lot of folk, but there are some people whose default bias against miracles makes them resistant even to the evidence of their own eyes/ears/touch.

Such a skeptic will be so entrenched in naturalism/scientism that the woudnt even accept someone coming back to life under ANY test conditions and will contrive myriad alternative hypotheses (which cant be tested) in order to avoid an unbelievable event.
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14-01-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: I miss theists.
Ok so after reading all this crap I suggest you take this to the boxing ring, set out some parameters and duke this out becuase right now you're both trying to wrestle a pig in the mud and are ending up on top of each other instead.

ok got that holy crap its like grade school in here.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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14-01-2013, 08:23 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 07:52 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Ummm. I already said I believed in a historical base of Jesus.

You haven't responded in the thread I set up, so I assumed you were just going to avoid it. I introduced a topic and I even offered you to go first.

You said
Quote:Lets do this
Do what?
I'll do a formal debate with a clearly defined topic, structure, word count and time limits, etc

Topic: Resurrection of Yeshua ( Jesus the Christ)
...there is no logical and evidence based reason to believe.

Huh

Yes, there is. Jesus is God. God loves the world. God can do anything. People saw it happen. The end. Thanks for playing.
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14-01-2013, 08:34 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 07:52 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Ummm. I already said I believed in a historical base of Jesus....

Great. Glad to hear that. Me too.

Historical - based on or constituting factual material as distinct from legend or supposition.


Now back to that claim that some of the history is exaggerated.

Can you cite me some non-exaggerated examples that we can use for comparison with the ones you claim are exaggerated?
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14-01-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: I miss theists.
fucking set parameters NOW

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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14-01-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 08:03 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(14-01-2013 07:47 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Hence why you can't make an argument based on empirical evidence, which was the point KC was making.

What is the confusion?

I can make a Resurrection argument based on empirical evidence. Empricial evidence is that derived from the senses - all of them.

The only question is how much repeatability is demanded. That can vary. One test? Two? Three? Three hundred?

If a person I completely trust reports empirical evidence they observed (data) about polar ice caps melting, I wouldnt doubt the result. But another person who reads the same report they might be entitled to challenge the trustworthiness of the person reporting the same data and they might want to go and verify it for themself or send a different scientist - not on my payroll, more qualified, better observational equipment, more pro-business, more pro-environment....etc etc.
But, that empirical evidence that you base your empirical evidence off isn't empirical evidence. That's why I had my first footnote. Yes,we trust the Bible, but it isn't empirical evidence, so you can't use it as empirical evidence. The historical information surrounding Christ cannot be proved.

So, without the Bible, can you present empirical evidence?

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14-01-2013, 08:44 PM
RE: I miss theists.
hmmm lemme try taking a shot KC

wait...dammit I'm defeating my own arguments. ummmmm welll huh guess there is no way to prove that the bible is empirical.

So what does this mean everyone. We need logical arguments against the existence of god. Well I don't know about you guys, but I don't see too much logic here eh?

srsly, A2 I know you wanna debate, but pin the guy to some set out lines so that this isn't a big shitfest cause right now it's flying high and sticky.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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