[split] Debating Lion IRC
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08-02-2013, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 02:38 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 02:07 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  ...Most mature minds aren’t placated unless explanations fit the facts. We like to reconcile all observations and ideas. The person unwilling to do this might have a troubled mind.

Lion, if you have any integrity, admit you have a troubled mind.



Is that the best you got.... My debate opponent is mentally unstable.

If we both did that @ each other it would be a stalemate.

Not "all Christians'' come across challenges to their beliefs.
In fact, this thread has shown me just how weak the purported challenges can get.

...The Gospels were written for liturgical recitation by early Christians.
No wait!...nobody knows who the intended audience was.
The Jews din know nuttin 'bout read'n an writ'n history an stuff...they waz too dumb fer dat''
Hang on, thats not right either. They were ''noble lies'' that suicidal folk loved to repeat while being eaten alive or crucified.
Oh...that cant be right. Didnt the Romans forge the Gospels deliberately as propaganda since their military might wasnt enough to defeat Jewish trouble-makers? (And they didnt have enough paper to produce hundreds of copies of their own propaganda, thats why we never found any more copies of Mark, Luke, Matthew...)
No, no, no...youre all wrong. The Romans and Jews BOTH consired to help Jesus fake His execution and burial.
Yabbut Pliny was just pretending to torture Christians because everybody knows Jesus never existed.
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08-02-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
Lion IRC; You will never find a more wretched hive of ignorance and strawmen.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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08-02-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
Nobody here has admitted their own cognitive dissonance.
If you are an atheist, if you are a methodological naturalist, you are going to want ANY explanation other than God.
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08-02-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
Yes, because gods explain nothing. They are one of the weakest explanations you can find. All god is is personified magic. Tell me, why do Christians flinch and throw fits when you compare their god to magic? Cognitive dissonance, I'd say.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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08-02-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
The background information here is Gods existence. (And I dont mind if you find God's abilities miraculous or describe them as magical)

And God has a loving motive.

He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think. And that people who are sad, broken, afflicted, ashamed, depressed, confused by the sins of this world (greed, hatred, violence, injustice) can find salvation, forgiveness and hope if they want. The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.
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08-02-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think.

What does "gave himself" mean?

If I go tell my children that our house is closer than they think, how am I giving myself?

Do you mean that he manufactured a piece of himself into Jesus, called him a "son" but really it was just himself, then he let that piece of himself walk around the earth for 33 years until some Roman tortured and destroyed the earthly part of himself so that he could take that piece of himself back up to heaven?

Is that what you mean by "gave himself"? Then why did he take it back? When I give a gift, I don't take it back home, not even after 33 years.

(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.

How does that show that god loves you and me? He didn't resurrect you or me, he resurrected himself. Big whoop. So god loves himself. I'm not even sure it means that - because right after resurrecting himself he took himself back up to heaven.

Regardless, I don't see this as proof that he loves me. Maybe he could resurrect my mother so I could have her back with me. Or my favorite dog, I really miss him too. That might prove that he loves me. But resurrecting himself for a few hours doesn't prove any kind of love at all.

Nor does it show that death is not the end. God resurrected himself, a supernatural magical being. He didn't resurrect a normal human. Maybe he cannot. Maybe death really is the end. Whatever the case, when an omnipotent magical being resurrects itself, all that really proves is that death is not the end for that omnipotent magical being.

Of course, none of this proves anything because nobody witnessed it, nobody wrote it down, until decades later when a few guys wrote some stories based on some local urban legends. Heck, if the bible had never existed and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all alive today, they'd be writing about the resurrection of Elvis Presley who must be the son of god, based on eyewitness accounts of a handful of old ladies who have seen him walking around Memphis after his death.

And if that happened, that wouldn't prove that god loves you and me, nor that death is not the end, either.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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08-02-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The background information here is Gods existence. (And I dont mind if you find God's abilities miraculous or describe them as magical)

And God has a loving motive.

He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think. And that people who are sad, broken, afflicted, ashamed, depressed, confused by the sins of this world (greed, hatred, violence, injustice) can find salvation, forgiveness and hope if they want. The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.


Well, I'm screwed. All I've got is greed.. that and a total, all consuming rage and hatred of the entire world bubbling just below the surface.

Word of advice, kiddies. Hold in your emotions. Hold in all your rage and sorrow, keep them locked up tight and never let anybody see them and just keep holding them until you reach the point where you cannot let them go and must keep building them up, lest ye melt down during the unleashing.

It makes you stronger.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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08-02-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 03:01 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think.

What does "gave himself" mean?

If I go tell my children that our house is closer than they think, how am I giving myself?

Do you mean that he manufactured a piece of himself into Jesus, called him a "son" but really it was just himself, then he let that piece of himself walk around the earth for 33 years until some Roman tortured and destroyed the earthly part of himself so that he could take that piece of himself back up to heaven?

Is that what you mean by "gave himself"? Then why did he take it back? When I give a gift, I don't take it back home, not even after 33 years.

(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.

How does that show that god loves you and me? He didn't resurrect you or me, he resurrected himself. Big whoop. So god loves himself. I'm not even sure it means that - because right after resurrecting himself he took himself back up to heaven.

Regardless, I don't see this as proof that he loves me. Maybe he could resurrect my mother so I could have her back with me. Or my favorite dog, I really miss him too. That might prove that he loves me. But resurrecting himself for a few hours doesn't prove any kind of love at all.

Nor does it show that death is not the end. God resurrected himself, a supernatural magical being. He didn't resurrect a normal human. Maybe he cannot. Maybe death really is the end. Whatever the case, when an omnipotent magical being resurrects itself, all that really proves is that death is not the end for that omnipotent magical being.

Of course, none of this proves anything because nobody witnessed it, nobody wrote it down, until decades later when a few guys wrote some stories based on some local urban legends. Heck, if the bible had never existed and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all alive today, they'd be writing about the resurrection of Elvis Presley who must be the son of god, based on eyewitness accounts of a handful of old ladies who have seen him walking around Memphis after his death.

And if that happened, that wouldn't prove that god loves you and me, nor that death is not the end, either.
"Of course, none of this proves anything because nobody witnessed it,
nobody wrote it down, until decades later when a few guys wrote some
stories based on some local urban legends. Heck, if the bible had never
existed and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all alive today, they'd
be writing about the resurrection of Elvis Presley who must be the son
of god, based on eyewitness accounts of a handful of old ladies who have
seen him walking around Memphis after his death."

I love this analogy. So true. Thanks! I'm going to remember it for future use.
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08-02-2013, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 05:28 PM by Vosur.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The background information here is Gods existence. (And I dont mind if you find God's abilities miraculous or describe them as magical)

And God has a loving motive.

He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think. And that people who are sad, broken, afflicted, ashamed, depressed, confused by the sins of this world (greed, hatred, violence, injustice) can find salvation, forgiveness and hope if they want. The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.
It just figures that you were going to reveal the real reason for your beliefs sooner or later. Not much to my surprise, it's the same old dislike of the status quo in combination with the everlasting fear of death.

Now, if you don't mind, I'd like you to answer the following yes-no question:

Would you dedicate your life to the worship of a supernatural deity if there was neither the threat of eternal punishment in Hell, nor the promise of eternal bliss in Heaven; if you knew that this life is all you get and that death is the ultimate end?

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08-02-2013, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 05:59 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(08-02-2013 02:45 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The background information here is Gods existence. (And I dont mind if you find God's abilities miraculous or describe them as magical)

And God has a loving motive.

He gave Himself to bring us the Good News that The Kingdom of God is closer than you think. And that people who are sad, broken, afflicted, ashamed, depressed, confused by the sins of this world (greed, hatred, violence, injustice) can find salvation, forgiveness and hope if they want. The Resurrection shows us that God DOES love us and that death is not the end.
OR

Some clever people invented the new testament ie God didn’t write it, nor did bona-fide historians, or people discussing what they thought was the truth, or people who genuinely cared about their readers. It was scrawled by spin-doctors asserting their own authority. They had a similar agenda to people who currently work in advertising agencies, and their writings share many of the features of an advertising
campaign.

The new testament was written to profit certain groups; it contained little of true value, and its authors tried to appeal to the emotions and dreams of the masses to push a product.
It was thought up to promote power over people, and was very good at it, which is the main reason it’s survived the passage of time.

The authors knew their market at the time was credulous and superstitious, easily impressed by mythical stories and frightened by threats. The bible is targeted at the hoi polloi, the gullible gatherings, the
naive people, the consumers. It's a product of the petty politics of power-hungry people.
It required no real resources to get results. The use of gods, miracles, prophets, promises of heaven and threats of hell requires nothing more than confidence and an active imagination to advertise.

Lion, ever heard of Occam's razor? Apply it to the gospel stories, and ask yourself, which is more likely, your scenario or mine? Be honest.

Lion, you're one of the consumers. You're eating a big mac, with fries and a double coke. It tastes ok, but will ultimately make you sick. The system is making money out of you.
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