[split] Debating Lion IRC
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21-02-2013, 01:17 AM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 12:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-02-2013 12:28 AM)StorMFront Wrote:  The persecution of a few early "christians" wasnt a myth. Romans had laws about religion, the early christians knew this and broke the laws. There is no evidence to suggest Rome had a vendetta against christians and wanted to slaughter them all. The Jesus cult wasnt even on their radar at the time of Nero. It took hundreds of years for it to have an impact on Roman society. Thats my understanding on it, I AINT NO HISTORIAN THOUGH.


From what I understand, the Romans had an open pagan society. They saw other religious pantheons as different interpretations of the same gods. Romans called their version 'Jupiter Optimus Maximus', the Egyptians called theirs 'Amun-Ra', and the Babylonians called theirs 'Marduk', etc. Christians, much like the latter Hebrew, ostracized themselves by denying and refusing to participate in the pagan practices of their contemporaries. The Romans probably would have been fine if the Christians had blended in and agreed that Yahweh and Jesus were just avatars or aspects of the other pagan gods, much as everyone else did; but they refused to do this. They also refused to swear fealty to the Emperor (the oath claimed that the Emperor was a god), which prevented them from becoming Roman citizens or serving in the army or public office. If there was persecution, it sounds like it was self inflicted. Now I could be wrong, but this is what I've seen so far.
I agree.

BTW, thanks for posting the excellent series of videos.
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21-02-2013, 01:20 AM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 01:05 AM)Julius Wrote:  Haven't you guys realized that Lion IRC DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK about what you say? All Lion IRC wants to do is waste bandwidth and so prevent you from discussing anything meaningful. If Lion IRC can make you waste time, then he wins.
Yeah...I've worked that out.

We've moved on and are discussing some history now. I don't care whether he joins in or not.
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21-02-2013, 01:29 AM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 01:05 AM)Julius Wrote:  Haven't you guys realized that Lion IRC DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK about what you say? All Lion IRC wants to do is waste bandwidth and so prevent you from discussing anything meaningful. If Lion IRC can make you waste time, then he wins.


Yes and no. Are we going to convince Pussycat IRC any time soon? No, he's just here to be an ass. Will our counter arguments and refusal to back down show him for the terrible, inept, and ignorant fool that he is to others passing through the forums? We can only hope.


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21-02-2013, 04:08 AM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2013 07:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(20-02-2013 11:18 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 10:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then answer the fucking questions, moron.

The questions have been answered already.

*Jesus really existed. (That is not reasonably disputed. Jesus ''mythers'' are a fringe group.)

*Miracles are perfectly feasible for a Supreme Being. (That cannot metaphysically disputed.)

*I explained Gods unselfish loving motive for the Resurrection. (Nobody contested that motive.)

*The only truth claim under discussion is whether the Gospel sources honestly believed that which they were reporting. (Nobody contested their sanity. Nobody contested their persecution/martyrdom. Being stoned to death is the best lie detector ever devised and the disciples of Jesus gained nothing from the risks they took spreading Christianity.)

*The age/dating of Gospel manuscripts is essentially a red herring because Christians would still be defending the same CONTENT irrespective of the copy date moving +/- 20 years. And in any case, the Gospel fragments which may be preserved copies of earlier written accounts, are STILL closer in time to the events they report than any other historical document of antiquity. (And nobody has contradictory evidence disputing that the manuscript authors or their sources were reporting eyewitness accounts. You cannot make claims and assertions about the supposed motives and identity of authors while at the same time accusing Christians of not knowing who they were.)

The current (and still prevailing) best explanation for the accepted historical facts is an apparent, otherwise inexplicable, supernatural event which is only a problem for skeptics if they deliberately refuse to admit the existence of God. And as I said, Jesus' Resurrection is NOT the only miraculous event associated with God's existence. So the atheist who focuses their skepticism on one single biblical miracle is pretty much missing the forest for the trees.

Wrong again. The thread has nothing to do with "did Jebus exist". Apparently you are unable to keep the subject at hand in front of you. The thread is "evidence for the resurrection", and you have provided none. You have never answered why this resurrection, among the many reported, is special, or why the the first gospel forgot to mention it. Your god NEEDED, (apparently) for someone to DIE, in order to feel better, so don't preach at us about her "unselfish motives". She is an ancient angry, pissed-off childish deity, (apparently). Dying for one's beliefs is NO "lie detector", and you have never explained why all the others who died for all their other beliefs were wrong, and this set just happens to be correct. The "truth claim" under discussion is not whether YOU believe the writers of the gospels were honest. (We have demonstrated that in an age of magic and "pious fraud" there is VERY good reason to doubt that), but whether there is EVIDENCE for the resurrection. You STILL have provided none, except the faith claims of believers who wrote them in documents meant to be used in worship events, (which every scholar knows). The closeness of a lie to a supposed event proves nothing. Someone can write a lie at any time, and in any case, all scholars knows the FIRST GOSPEL, which is THE closest to the "event" in question had NO RESURRECTION, and for decades it had none, as is evident in the codicies we have presented, and you have ignored, and not explained.
Therefore,
NONE of the questions have been answered already.

Try again, Pussy Cat.

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21-02-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(20-02-2013 11:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 11:18 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  *The only truth claim under discussion is whether the Gospel sources honestly believed that which they were reporting. (Nobody contested their sanity. Nobody contested their persecution/martyrdom. Being stoned to death is the best lie detector ever devised and the disciples of Jesus gained nothing from the risks they took spreading Christianity.)


Other people who have died terrible painful deaths for their beliefs, and thus must be true.

You are conflating two different arguments. Which proposition are you trying to refute?

A) That people died for something they honestly believed was true.
B) That the alleged event those people were willing to die for happened.

I understand you dont belive in Jesus' Resurrection (B) but your picture of a self-immolating buddhist (A) proves MY case not yours because that protester wasnt dying for something they knew was a lie.

The persecution, torture and execution of early Christians (Jews) was central to the rapid rise of Christianity. Why?
Because the willingness of Christians to endure that simply drew even MORE attention to their claims.
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21-02-2013, 05:28 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 05:23 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 11:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Other people who have died terrible painful deaths for their beliefs, and thus must be true.

You are conflating two different arguments. Which proposition are you trying to refute?

A) That people died for something they honestly believed was true.
B) That the alleged event those people were willing to die for happened.

I understand you dont belive in Jesus' Resurrection (B) but your picture of a self-immolating buddhist (A) proves MY case not yours because that protester wasnt dying for something they knew was a lie.

The persecution, torture and execution of early Christians (Jews) was central to the rapid rise of Christianity. Why?
Because the willingness of Christians to endure that simply drew even MORE attention to their claims.

Assuming that's true, what does it have to do with their beliefs being true or not? Sure they believed it was true, but as we've demonstrated, people believe all kinds of things that aren't true. So what's your point?

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21-02-2013, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2013 05:48 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 05:23 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 11:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Other people who have died terrible painful deaths for their beliefs, and thus must be true.

You are conflating two different arguments. Which proposition are you trying to refute?

A) That people died for something they honestly believed was true.
B) That the alleged event those people were willing to die for happened.

I understand you dont belive in Jesus' Resurrection (B) but your picture of a self-immolating buddhist (A) proves MY case not yours because that protester wasnt dying for something they knew was a lie.

The persecution, torture and execution of early Christians (Jews) was central to the rapid rise of Christianity. Why?
Because the willingness of Christians to endure that simply drew even MORE attention to their claims.
Drooling
Passers-by stop to watch as flames envelope a young Buddhist monk, Saigon, October 5th, 1963.



The man sits impassively in the central market square, he has set himself on fire performing a ritual suicide in protest against governmental anti-Buddhist policies. Crowds gathered to protest in Hue after the South Vietnamese government prohibited Buddhists from carrying flags on Buddha's birthday. Government troops opened fire to disperse the dissidents, killing nine people, Diems government blamed the incident on the Vietcong and never admitted responsibility. The Buddhist leadership quickly organized demonstrations that eventually led to seven monks burning themselves to death.



The point of his post was to refute the claim that dieing for a religion makes it more authentic. Many people have died for religions and bad ideas, since the beginning of time. None of their deaths automatically make any claim true.

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21-02-2013, 06:33 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 05:23 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The persecution, torture and execution of early Christians (Jews) was central to the rapid rise of Christianity. Why?
Because the willingness of Christians to endure that simply drew even MORE attention to their claims.


You don't know that. You assume that. You made that up, and repeat it because that's what they told you in Sunday school. You have no evidence for that. Typical Puss bull.

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21-02-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
(21-02-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-02-2013 05:23 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The persecution, torture and execution of early Christians (Jews) was central to the rapid rise of Christianity. Why?
Because the willingness of Christians to endure that simply drew even MORE attention to their claims.



You don't know that. You assume that. You made that up, and repeat it because that's what they told you in Sunday school. You have no evidence for that. Typical Puss bull.



YEP.

Where is the evidence for the persecution and torture of early Christians? There isn't any. It's a myth. I asked Lion to produce this evidence...he didn't....he just restated his claim.
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21-02-2013, 10:09 PM
RE: [split] Debating Lion IRC
60 pages and still no evidence, just amateur 'armchair' apologetics. Moving the goal post, arguing from authority, arguing from popularity, false analogy, etc. But never presenting the one thing required, actual evidence...

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