[split] Debating Lion IRC
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14-01-2013, 12:53 AM
RE: I miss theists.
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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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14-01-2013, 01:56 AM
RE: I miss theists.
(13-01-2013 11:40 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Am I supposed to be watching all those videos?
Hmmm.
I drew the historical eyewitness account to see better what happened.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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14-01-2013, 02:00 AM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 01:56 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(13-01-2013 11:40 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Am I supposed to be watching all those videos?
Hmmm.
I drew the historical eyewitness account to see better what happened.

[Image: 6nAuo.png]


Clearly this proves that Jesus was resurrected and is currently standing at the foot of God in heaven, because it's the ONLY explanation that fits the story! I mean seriously, how can anyone dispute this concrete evidence that Jesus was the Son of God?

Empty Tomb! You can't explain that!

Tongue

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14-01-2013, 02:07 AM
RE: I miss theists.
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14-01-2013, 02:19 AM
RE: I miss theists.
@ Free Thought

I was trying to find that image macro, but the Google must not have been with me tonight... Tongue

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14-01-2013, 02:28 AM
RE: I miss theists.
For future reference, the meme is "you can't explain that" and I built this on memegenerator.net

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14-01-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: I miss theists.
So A2, are you still missing theists or has your appetite just been soured?

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14-01-2013, 12:43 PM
RE: I miss theists.
Hey, Lion... Christian here.

But, I think there is a disconnect between what you're saying and what they're saying.

So, let me ask:

Can you provide any empirical evidence(1) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

(1) This does not include the Bible, anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness accounts.

If not, then there is no debate. Like the existence of God, this debate is based on unfalsifiable evidence. As Egor said, no one (alive)was there 2000 years ago; therefore, it cannot be proved or disproved empirically(2).

It is purely based on faith.

(2) Sure, there are historical debates on Christ and His existence, but they are largely inconclusive because again, they are based on unfalsifiable evidence. Likewise, proving His existence runs parallel to this.

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14-01-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 12:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Can you provide any empirical evidence(1) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

(1) This does not include the Bible, anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness accounts.

If not, then there is no debate. Like the existence of God, this debate is based on unfalsifiable evidence. As Egor said, no one (alive)was there 2000 years ago; therefore, it cannot be proved or disproved empirically(2).

It is purely based on faith.

(2) Sure, there are historical debates on Christ and His existence, but they are largely inconclusive because again, they are based on unfalsifiable evidence. Likewise, proving His existence runs parallel to this.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you King, at least to some extent.

While it is true that it can't be proven either way, that's not really the point. Just because it can't be proven (and really, nothing outside of math technically can be), doesn't mean that we can't make probability judgments based on what we do know. From the perspective of math and probability, we can calculate the odds for the existence of Yahweh or the Resurrection of Jesus.

I know I've already posted two Richard Carrier talks, but it looks like I'll be adding a third. This is his presentation at Skepticon 4, where he explains Baye's Theorum and how it can be used to determine risk and probability. He then gives very generous concessions to the religious claims in question, and still comes up with very improbable odds, and shows you why that is. Is it enough to disprove either? No, but it's enough to safely dismiss both as extremely unlikely, to the point of statistical insignificance. I know it's a bit of a long talk, but stick with it through the end, it will all come together.




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14-01-2013, 07:40 PM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2013 07:48 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: I miss theists.
(14-01-2013 12:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hey, Lion... Christian here.

But, I think there is a disconnect between what you're saying and what they're saying.

So, let me ask:

Can you provide any empirical evidence(1) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

(1) This does not include the Bible, anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness accounts.

If not, then there is no debate. Like the existence of God, this debate is based on unfalsifiable evidence. As Egor said, no one (alive)was there 2000 years ago; therefore, it cannot be proved or disproved empirically(2).

It is purely based on faith.

(2) Sure, there are historical debates on Christ and His existence, but they are largely inconclusive because again, they are based on unfalsifiable evidence. Likewise, proving His existence runs parallel to this.

People can debate the Resurrection of Jesus on whatever basis they like.

Atothetheist hasnt stipulated any debate conditions or even a format.
And so far I've seen a lot of argumentum ad youtubeam (...I'm too lazy to debate so watch this video of a summary of a book by a person who quotemines a ton of other ppls stuff) and not much actual debate framework.

If Atothetheist or anyone else wants to argue a case that the biblical account of Jesus' life and death is exaggerated, the burden of proof rests on the person making that claim. All I want to know is, how can such a claim even be offered for debate without an ACTUAL (non-exaggerated) account for comparison.

And I am not going to debate someone who ultimately retreats to the cowards corner claiming that the person whose Resurrection is being debated never really existed in the first place. That is a disingenuous bait-n-switch request for a debate about one topic and trying to change the topic after the debate has begun.

Maybe Atothetheist needs to resolve the historicity of a persons existence first before asking every passer-by if they want to debate some aspect of that person's life and death.

As for empirical evidence, how much repeatability would you need kingschosen? How many times would you expect Jesus to allow skeptics to execute Him over and over before your said OK, yes, His Resurrection can be tested according to the scientific method? I'm assuming you have a suitably qualified panel of peer reviewers who expect Jesus to show up on demand.
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